Giant Iconic Ferris Wheel to go downtown!

[waterboy]

I got it. How about a giant Indian sculpture that you could ride up by elevator inside?

Seriously, the cart is rolling away from the horse. I guess I'm missing the point of having a large iconic (your favorite word) interactive structure downtown. If it is not an attraction but an attractor, then what is it attracting? Conventioneers? They don't use that as criteria for locating. More likely room availability and cost, transportation and facilities.  BTW, I use tomato's not tomatoes in my salsa and it attracts Mexicans.

I remember some community moving a European bridge piece by piece to their desert location and finding it didn't really attract all that well. A large ship was taken out of service and converted into hotel/restaurant space on the west coast. A local community floated a submarine up the navigation channel with hopes of it being a local attraction. All merely became another little part of the fabric of the shirt, not the buttons.

Do what comes naturally to a community and do them where they fit naturally and good things happen. Force an iconic ferris wheel downtown and bad things will happen. OKC putting a classic ferris wheel along their river near downtown makes sense for their expanded Bricktown development. Not iconic, just OKC.

Not meaning to rag on you, I just can't figure what you're aiming at here.

[swake]

What do you mean if?  OKC got one.  It is being restored in Wichita as we speak.  One restoration is complete, it will be located along the Oklahoma River near downtown OKC.

No, an Oklahoma City developer owns one and he says he intends to install it as part of a massive riverfront development that has not even begun and therefore is highly unlikely to happen for several years, if ever.

A lot can happen in this economy, so no, Oklahoma City doesn't "have" one.

[mjchamplin]

Waterboy, you nailed my sentiments exactly.

These ideas of 'attractors' are not formulaic. You can't force them. You can do things to lead them in the right direction, to get ideas started, but you're right--you simply can't put something interesting there and expect an "if you build it they will come" situation. People look for a diverse group of things when they choose a venue for a convention or the like. The whole package. It's an organic growth kind of thing.

Personally (and trust me, I like the idea of a Ferris wheel or something) I would much rather see a really good quality museum go downtown. Art, science, history...whatever it is. We can talk about how much better downtown is doing with regard to the arena and eateries and bars and everything, but there's room for so much more. More things to do.

[TheArtist]

I got it. How about a giant Indian sculpture that you could ride up by elevator inside?

Seriously, the cart is rolling away from the horse. I guess I'm missing the point of having a large iconic (your favorite word) interactive structure downtown. If it is not an attraction but an attractor, then what is it attracting? Conventioneers? They don't use that as criteria for locating. More likely room availability and cost, transportation and facilities.  BTW, I use tomato's not tomatoes in my salsa and it attracts Mexicans.

I remember some community moving a European bridge piece by piece to their desert location and finding it didn't really attract all that well. A large ship was taken out of service and converted into hotel/restaurant space on the west coast. A local community floated a submarine up the navigation channel with hopes of it being a local attraction. All merely became another little part of the fabric of the shirt, not the buttons.

Do what comes naturally to a community and do them where they fit naturally and good things happen. Force an iconic ferris wheel downtown and bad things will happen. OKC putting a classic ferris wheel along their river near downtown makes sense for their expanded Bricktown development. Not iconic, just OKC.

Not meaning to rag on you, I just can't figure what you're aiming at here.

What I am aiming at is getting peoples ideas, like yours. I like having tangible goals to shoot for. Of course there are always the basic, bread and butter issues to tackle, but its also nice to throw a little tasty treat into the mix to get people excited and wet ones appetite.

Sorry about the, its not an attraction but an attractor comment. Let me take that back a bit lol. I think I, and others, sense we are missing certain components in our downtown. Course we KNOW there are lots of things missing actually and we often talk about those basics and we are moving along with them and should continue to push for more, hotel rooms etc.

But when I look at whats happening and the picture thats unfolding... well take those conventioneers for instance. Its not just about having a great convention space, arena, transportation, hotels, and restaurants. They DO also factor in "What is there to do in this or that city?" And believe it or not, having something thats a "first thing that pops into your mind that you see when you visualize a city" can be a selling point, or not, as well.  Its fine and dandy to have a great little "bricktown" or club/restaurant/shopping area, but you know really thats a basic given that any decently competitive place will have. So what would make us stand out from the crowd, be noticeable and unique that we could throw into the mix?

And thats just one component. The other thing that brought this whole thread up was that there is a push to do a park in the East End. So I am thinking, What would be neat to put in there? Something that would be enjoyable to families and kids perhaps, but that could also be that neat extra thing for visitors, and that sets us apart.  Buildings, museums, structures, artwork can act as visual "icons" which leap out in peoples minds. You mention the city or place and pow, you see this or that structure. You see an image of that structure, you immediately know what city is and often think, yea, I would like to go see that. That kind of thing would imo, indeed help our city with attracting conventioneers, tourists, people in general, to our downtown.

Yes of course we have to have the basics, the horse.  I do not want to "force a ferris wheel downtown". I floated the idea to get a discussion going. My general feeling after most of the comments on here. May be a neat idea, but there are other ideas that could be just the ticket and that the community as you point out, seems to have a definite desire for.  A kids museum, or science museum (something that has both) a deco museum, etc. So of course, if there is more of a desire to have something along those lines, by all means lets go for it. And my slant on any such project would be, lets make it something "iconic" fun and interesting as well. Something that sets us apart and when you mention Tulsa its one of the first things that immediately comes to mind. Something that is not just a museum for instance, but is also an "identity builder" a positive thing that people immediately visualize when they think of downtown Tulsa. Why not?

[TheArtist]

Waterboy, you nailed my sentiments exactly.

These ideas of 'attractors' are not formulaic. You can't force them. You can do things to lead them in the right direction, to get ideas started, but you're right--you simply can't put something interesting there and expect an "if you build it they will come" situation. People look for a diverse group of things when they choose a venue for a convention or the like. The whole package. It's an organic growth kind of thing.

Personally (and trust me, I like the idea of a Ferris wheel or something) I would much rather see a really good quality museum go downtown. Art, science, history...whatever it is. We can talk about how much better downtown is doing with regard to the arena and eateries and bars and everything, but there's room for so much more. More things to do.

Well said.

[mjchamplin]

And as you stated Artist, I think family-friendly can only help here. Wide-appeal, that's what makes these iconic things work. I was in the St. louis arch about a month ago. We shared an elevator on the way up with a dad with two kids, and an elevator down with an elderly couple. Appealing to a wide audience with this sort of thing is paramount.

Of course, having said that, who doesn't love a Ferris Wheel? 

[waterboy]

Of course, having said that, who doesn't love a Ferris Wheel? 

Me.

I understand Artist. Something needs to distinguish us. OKC has the Murrah. I had hoped the BOK Arena might be our signiture. It will happen and very naturally when the ideas start to flow for the East end.

[JoeMommaBlake]

East End -

Here we go.

1. Park: Green rolling hills with mature trees, landscaping, picnic areas, playgrounds, Frisbee golf course (or at least a place for some football, baseball field, climbing wall, azalea garden type place where people would want to get married, outdoor theater for Shakespeare in the park type events, outdoor concerts, and picnic in the park movie showings, and of course...a couple fountains.

2. 365 days a year carnival: walk up Ferris Wheel, Carousel, Sky Ride, Roller Coaster, Fun House, street vendors integrated into the park. This would be a fun, moving, and really unique element which would provide some compelling attractions to our citizens and to visitors...and as for their geography within the neighborhood, they should be situated in such a way to help bridge the park to...

3. Retail: Think Tattered Cover Bookstore, Crate and Barrell, NikeTown, Puma Store, Coach, Billabong, Izod, Adidas store, Trader Joe's grocery, Einstein Bros Bagel and Coffee, etc. What I'm suggesting is this - attractive notable retail that people from all over the metro area would be compelled to visit and that is recognizable to convention visitors. Mix the chains with unique local boutiques and restaurants (including a restaurant/bar/movie theater) and you have Tulsa's absolute best shopping experience - Store to store, pedestrian style shopping on stone walkways with outdoor sidewalk dining, a nearby park and carnival with Tulsa's beautiful skyline backdrop. Woodland Hills Mall? No thanks. Utica Square? Hoity Toity. Promenade Mall? Yeah, no.

4. Residential: Put residential units above much of the afore-mentioned retail in true mixed use construction with additional condos or row-homes butting up against the highway.

5. Museums and Interactive Experiences: Childrens' museum - cool. Interactive music experience highlighting Tulsa's unique music heritage and providing Tulsans with a fun, interactive, always changing celebration of music - really cool. Add to that a place for summer music camps, for students from local elementary, middle, and high schools to perform, and a music store selling local music...really really cool and a big part of reinforcing Tulsa's growing identity as a music/entertainment city....and a big reason for people to visit downtown.

6. Integrated Parking Garages: This one is important. Parking garages that are wrapped in retail, underground, or otherwise integrated into the other elements mentioned would serve to preserve as much of the precious land in the area as possible and would serve as a profound example to the surface parking loving citizenry of what happens when you solve the issue of parking with creativity and purpose. We don't have to have a big ugly parking garage. We can put parking under things, on top of things etc, but the goal should be to create an environment where cars are rarely if ever seen.

Lastly, my hope for this unique and appealing part of downtown would be that it would serve as the large hub of continued retail development that would head west down 5th street all the way to Denver and as east through the Pearl District up 6th street. The entire north side of 6th street from the highway all the way to Peoria is prime...except the VFW, right? Leave that. Let's not forget to head north down Elgin all the way to the ballpark. The East End, or whatever you want to call it, is the most critical piece in the downtown development puzzle. It is our opportunity to create a place that has all day appeal to all kinds of people. It's not night-life oriented. It's not car oriented, it's not geared towards young professionals or empty nesters. It's not dependent on an event center like a ballpark or arena. It's got way more moving parts than that and it works because it's easy to get to (the BA dumps you right there), appealing to live in (can you imagine a cooler place to live?), and a unique treat to visit (suburbanites and our rural neighbors would love some Nike store, carnival rides, etc). You put downtown's trolley/bus transit hub there and people can easily head north to blue dome and brady or west to the civic center and arena or south to TCC and church and 18th and Boston.

And this next part is not my idea at all. I'll give credit for it when I know the fake online name of the guy from whom I heard it... You know that big ugly brown graham cracker looking building across Elgin from the East End? Mark the whole area by projecting images up on to that building. You get rid of the ugly and you create a large, moving, ever-changing work of art towering over the east end. Maybe put big white screens that cover the whole side of each side of the building and fill them with moving images, announcements of festivals, etc.... Cool idea if you ask me.

Yeah, so it can be really cool down there. It's bomb, in fact. Somebody start a thread about what to do with Rt. 66 and I'll give you another one of these crazy dreams.

When you can't say it well enough yourself, consult Henry David Thoreau.

If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.
   Henry David Thoreau

[TheArtist]

Sounds fantastic Blake. I like how there are a lot of different family friendly things to do, and things for visitors/conventioneers of all ages to enjoy. I like that its a very holistic package containing the park, retail, things to see and do, restaurant, plenty of living, etc. Its an Urban Neighborhood that would both be bustling and alive, yet comfortable to live in and near and is very pedestrian friendly.

Though its likely none of us has the money to build this lol, it can be the start of a zoning plan for that part of town which would guide and ensure things arent built in the area which would make it difficult for anything like this to ever happen, (a wal-mart where the park would be) and change our current zoning that can require things which make such an idea difficult or impossible to build (unless some huge developer could come in and do it all at once). Its likely that it would be small developers one at a time and some medium sized developments as well, all adding together. So having zoning that guides each piece into place and helps assure each small developer that the next piece will add to their own and stick to the desired end result,,, I think would be a great idea. How great would it be to be a small developer in that area, take a chance and be one of the first to build something with retail on the first floor up to the sidewalk, with living above,,, and know that on this street to either side of you the next person will build something similar to become the pedestrian friendly retail corridor across from the park. And NOT have to worry that the guy next to you will come in and build something with a blank wall and parking in front for instance. When people cooperate towards a greater whole, they can all benefit more. There is already zoning there telling people what they can and cant do, just shift its nature to encourage a different, agreed upon outcome.

[mjchamplin]

...outdoor theater for Shakespeare in the park type events...

I hadn't ever thought about this before, but it's a wonderful idea. An update to what we have on the West Bank -- I remember going and seeing the Philharmonic play there when I was little. A public performance space would be awesome for local theater, festivals, etc.

Retail: Think Tattered Cover Bookstore, Crate and Barrell, NikeTown, Puma Store, Coach, Billabong, Izod, Adidas store, Trader Joe's grocery, Einstein Bros Bagel and Coffee, etc.

Nice mixed retail, I like it. And I always end up in areas like this when I travel, because I enjoy a lot of those types of stores. And they always serve as anchors for other development.

4. Residential: Put residential units above much of the afore-mentioned retail in true mixed use construction with additional condos or row-homes butting up against the highway.

Awesome. I immediately think of Mockingbird Station in Dallas...though maybe something a little less cramped. http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/

Clearly the East End has a lot of possibilities. I like all of your ideas, and I think a lot of people (even suburbanites, if a lot of it was private development) would like them too.

Obviously it takes developers with money to make things like this happen, but with regard to the zoning, what are the chances of getting them changed? I know that's a major goal of Planit Tulsa, so should we see those changes coming down the pipe?

[TheArtist]

I hadn't ever thought about this before, but it's a wonderful idea. An update to what we have on the West Bank -- I remember going and seeing the Philharmonic play there when I was little. A public performance space would be awesome for local theater, festivals, etc.

Nice mixed retail, I like it. And I always end up in areas like this when I travel, because I enjoy a lot of those types of stores. And they always serve as anchors for other development.

Awesome. I immediately think of Mockingbird Station in Dallas...though maybe something a little less cramped. http://www.mockingbirdstation.com/

Clearly the East End has a lot of possibilities. I like all of your ideas, and I think a lot of people (even suburbanites, if a lot of it was private development) would like them too.

Obviously it takes developers with money to make things like this happen, but with regard to the zoning, what are the chances of getting them changed? I know that's a major goal of Planit Tulsa, so should we see those changes coming down the pipe?

Remember, once we pick a "plan", its then up to each area of town to get together and get the zoning changed. Once the comprehensive plan is adopted, nothing really changes....until the people in each area change the zoning to go with the new plan. Thats the next phase, thats going to be the next challenge. It will theoretically be easier to get the zoning changed to be more like what the comprehensive plan suggests, but if a land owner or group of people in an area dont want the change, they can still block it. Once the new comprehensive plan is adopted,,, the whole city or large areas of it dont suddenly have new zoning. Like the Pearl District, each area will have to push for the zoning to be changed in their area, if they want it. And they can also create more detailed descriptors and guidelines for their area in accordance with the more general zoning of the comprehensive plan.

The new comprehensive plan gives us a thought out, over all guidance, and some weight because it was chosen by the people. But it could easily get put on a shelf and gather dust. You can say,,, well this area needs to be changed to be zoned like this because thats what the comprehensive plan indends, But you the citizen, neighborhood, area, etc still have to get it changed.  And, you have to get into more specifics like,,, park here, mixed use here, pedestrian friendly or not. Saying an area is to be high or medium density housing and mixed use in such and such an area, for instance,,,, well you can visualize one thing, and get quite another. Mixed use area can mean housing over here, shopping there, NOT housing over shopping. High density doesnt have to include parking garages or pedestrian friendly sidewalks. It can, but doesnt have to. It could be  big towers surrounded by surface parking. You have to get down to the nitty gritty for your area and decide what you want and how to zone for it.     

[SXSW]

Love the ideas for the Blue Dome/East End.  I still think the parking lot to the east of the PAC would make a good park and serve as a buffer between the business district and Blue Dome, and an attraction in itself if it had a unique feature and sculpture garden with the PAC to the west, new science museum to the north on 2nd, new central library to the south on 3rd, and Blue Dome to the east.  I think focusing on making Elgin the 'main street' for retail through east downtown is a good idea, along with 6th (for connections to the Pearl) and also 3rd as it serves as the main connection from the arena.  1st and 2nd have potential to be the main streets for restaurants and nightlife in between Detroit and Greenwood. 

[TheArtist]

Love the ideas for the Blue Dome/East End.  I still think the parking lot to the east of the PAC would make a good park and serve as a buffer between the business district and Blue Dome, and an attraction in itself if it had a unique feature and sculpture garden with the PAC to the west, new science museum to the north on 2nd, new central library to the south on 3rd, and Blue Dome to the east.  I think focusing on making Elgin the 'main street' for retail through east downtown is a good idea, along with 6th (for connections to the Pearl) and also 3rd as it serves as the main connection from the arena.  1st and 2nd have potential to be the main streets for restaurants and nightlife in between Detroit and Greenwood. 

See those are the kinds of ideas I like to hear. I like having certain streets be encouraged to be pedestrian friendly "retail corridors" and such. Denver has a downtown and surrounding areas plan that zones like that.

If your a developer that wants to build big-box/car oreinted developments you know what streets you can do that on. If you want to build pedestrian friendly developments, you know the streets where thats going to continue to happen and further support your development. Doesnt stop different types of developments, actually helps the different types support each other. Until fairly recently so much has been in flux in our downtown and one couldnt really tell what area was going to become what. Now that things are starting to fill in, you can begin to see the outlines. Lots of cities have "ok" downtowns and areas. With some extra care we could create something incredible. Even OKC is trying to change things now and realizing they have to make some changes to their zoning code downtown to encourage good pedestrian friendly design in certain areas because some things have happened that they wish hadnt. Leaving it up to chance can get ya screwed or with a so so area versus a fantastic one.