Obama Confronts Republicans

[guido911]

If it isn't torture then why couldn't any law enforcement use it on any person that was Accused of a crime. 

Because we have a Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendment. Are you even trying anymore or do you believe terrorists picked up on the field of battle have U.S. Constitutional rights? If its the latter, then hell, let's read them their Miranda rights and get them a lawyer (at our expense if they can't afford one) right after they are done killing our soldiers or beheading an infidel. 

[FOTD]

You mean, America the "democracy"? You are shameless, piping up at me after getting spanked publicly.

The spunk has been spanked....and in public by Guido. Oh for shame. Anyway Gwee, this article articulates the necessity of having you  and this demon on board at TNF...we do create clarity as much as it's just not right to give you that much credit.

Read up!:Conservatives Live in a Different Moral Universe -- And Here's Why It Matters

"Liberals and conservatives have highly different moral priorities. And we have to understand them if we want to accomplish anything.

http://www.alternet.org/story/138303/conservatives_live_in_a_different_moral_universe_--_and_here's_why_it_matters/?page=6

[Cats Cats Cats]

Because we have a Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth, and Fourteenth Amendment. Are you even trying anymore or do you believe terrorists picked up on the field of battle have U.S. Constitutional rights? If its the latter, then hell, let's read them their Miranda rights and get them a lawyer (at our expense if they can't afford one) right after they are done killing our soldiers or beheading an infidel. 

It has nothing to do with field of battle or people who cut somebodies head off.  It is anybody we decide to have the CIA pickup from whatever country.  Are you saying that no US citizen should be waterboarded if they believe they have information to save lives?

[guido911]

It has nothing to do with field of battle or people who cut somebodies head off.  It is anybody we decide to have the CIA pickup from whatever country.  Are you saying that no US citizen should be waterboarded if they believe they have information to save lives?

You have both changed the subject and scope of the instant torture debate, presumably because you know foreign born terrorists on foreign lands have no rights under our constitution. Furthermore, you originally posted about waterboarding U.S. citizens for leaking the Wolverine movie, and obvious attempt at a slippery slope argument. Now you are talking about U.S. citizens that have the same sort of information KSM had and whether those folks could be waterboarded. I have previously posted on this forum that I agree with that rightwing extremist/noted fascist Alan Dershowitz's position on torture warrants:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/


You bet that if someone knew that McVeigh was about to bomb the Murrah Building and refused to tell authorities, you damned well better believe that person gets caterpillared or any other "enhanced interrogation technique".

[guido911]

The spunk has been spanked....and in public by Guido. Oh for shame. Anyway Gwee, this article articulates the necessity of having you  and this demon on board at TNF...we do create clarity as much as it's just not right to give you that much credit.

Read up!:Conservatives Live in a Different Moral Universe -- And Here's Why It Matters

"Liberals and conservatives have highly different moral priorities. And we have to understand them if we want to accomplish anything.

http://www.alternet.org/story/138303/conservatives_live_in_a_different_moral_universe_--_and_here's_why_it_matters/?page=6

FOTD, going full retard as a way of life

[Cats Cats Cats]

You have both changed the subject and scope of the instant torture debate, presumably because you know foreign born terrorists on foreign lands have no rights under our constitution. Furthermore, you originally posted about waterboarding U.S. citizens for leaking the Wolverine movie, and obvious attempt at a slippery slope argument. Now you are talking about U.S. citizens that have the same sort of information KSM had and whether those folks could be waterboarded. I have previously posted on this forum that I agree with that rightwing extremist/noted fascist Alan Dershowitz's position on torture warrants:

http://edition.cnn.com/2003/LAW/03/03/cnna.Dershowitz/


You bet that if someone knew that McVeigh was about to bomb the Murrah Building and refused to tell authorities, you damned well better believe that person gets caterpillared or any other "enhanced interrogation technique".

You are right I went way off course.  I just don't see where it ends if waterboarding and other techniques aren't torture why you just can't do it to anybody in the US.  Maybe it will be like a breathalyzer.  They will ask you if you will submit to a waterboarding and you have the right to refuse.  Oh and Obama is trying to get rid of the right to have a lawyer when being questioned.  So that would take away the lawyer trying to protect you.  And you still would have the right to remain silent, but they will just keep going until you talk.  Maybe the torture warrants will end up like FISA, too big of a hassle for the President to deal with.  So just skirt around it.

[guido911]

This will not make many on this forum happy. Apparently, a majority of Americans have no problem with "enhanced interrogation".
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118006/Slim-Majority-Wants-Bush-Era-Interrogations-Investigated.aspx

Let the investigations of the Bush admin. begin!!!

[FOTD]

This will not make many on this forum happy. Apparently, a majority of Americans have no problem with "enhanced interrogation".
http://www.gallup.com/poll/118006/Slim-Majority-Wants-Bush-Era-Interrogations-Investigated.aspx

Let the investigations of the Bush admin. begin!!!

Wait a minute. The majority voted Obama into office and you can't accept that either.....
Anyway, it's up to the Justice Department to deal with the Bushevik tortuous administrators.
It's a shame Rice, Cheney, and Rummy will have to answer questions to appease those of us who are firm believers in the rule of law.

[USRufnex]

Sometimes, the truth matters... more than opinion polls...

Waterboarding: A Tortured History

by Eric Weiner
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

Col. Keeley: And then did he take you back to your room?

Navarro: When Yuki could not get anything out of me, he wanted the interpreter to place me down below. And I was told by Yuki to take off all my clothes, so what I did was to take off my clothes as ordered. I was ordered to lay on a bench and Yuki tied my feet, hands and neck to that bench, lying with my face upward. After I was tied to the bench, Yuki placed some cloth on my face. And then with water from the faucet, they poured on me until I became unconscious. He repeated that four or five times.

You mean he brought water and poured water down your throat?

No sir, on my face, until I became unconscious. We were lying that way, with some cloth on my face, and then Yuki poured water on my face continuously.

And you couldn't breathe?

No, I could not, and so I, for a time, lost consciousness. I found my consciousness came back again and found Yuki was sitting on my stomach. And then I vomited the water from my stomach, and the consciousness came back again for me.

Where did the water come out when he sat on your stomach?

From my mouth and all openings of my face ... and then Yuki would repeat the same treatment and the same procedure to me until I became unconscious again.

How many times did that happen?

Around four or five times, from two o'clock up to four o'clock in the afternoon. When I was not able to endure his punishment which I received, I told a lie to Yuki ... . I could not really show anything to Yuki, because I was really lying just to stop the torture.

Was it painful?

Not so painful, but one becomes unconscious — like drowning in the water.

Like you were drowning?

Drowning. You could hardly breathe.

[Townsend]

I can't afford $1,000 a second but I'd donate.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090429/ap_en_ot/us_tv_hannity_s_torture

Olbermann pressing on Hannity's waterboard offer

After Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity made a seemingly impromptu offer last week to undergo waterboarding as a benefit for charity, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann leapt at it. He offered $1,000 to the families of U.S. troops for every second Hannity withstood the technique.

[Hoss]

I can't afford $1,000 a second but I'd donate.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090429/ap_en_ot/us_tv_hannity_s_torture

Olbermann pressing on Hannity's waterboard offer

After Fox News Channel's Sean Hannity made a seemingly impromptu offer last week to undergo waterboarding as a benefit for charity, MSNBC's Keith Olbermann leapt at it. He offered $1,000 to the families of U.S. troops for every second Hannity withstood the technique.

You've noticed the crickets regarding this from Hannity since then...while I think Olbermann maybe went a little too far with this, it sure is telling of the 'put up or shut up' mentality regarding this.  I guess the right wing talk/spin machine is just that: talk.

Althouth $1000 a second?  It's really a win-win.  The money goes to charity.  Maybe Hannity is thinking now he should have kept his hole shut about it.

[Cats Cats Cats]

I can't afford $1,000 a second but I'd donate.

I bet you probably could.

[Conan71]

You've noticed the crickets regarding this from Hannity since then...while I think Olbermann maybe went a little too far with this, it sure is telling of the 'put up or shut up' mentality regarding this.  I guess the right wing talk/spin machine is just that: talk.

Althouth $1000 a second?  It's really a win-win.  The money goes to charity.  Maybe Hannity is thinking now he should have kept his hole shut about it.

Hannity is a blow-hard.  I think he ought to take JO up on it.

[FOTD]

"Here come da judge, here come da jusge...." (F. Wilson)

Spanish judge opens Guantanamo investigation
By DANIEL WOOLLS – 1 hour ago
MADRID (AP) — A Spanish judge opened a probe into the Bush administration over alleged torture of terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, pressing ahead Wednesday with a drive that Spain's own attorney general has said should be waged in the United States, if at all.
Judge Baltasar Garzon, Spain's most prominent investigative magistrate, said he is acting under this country's observance of the principle of universal justice, which allows crimes allegedly committed in other countries to be prosecuted in Spain.
He said documents declassified by the new U.S. government suggest the practice was systematic and ordered at high levels of the US government.
Garzon's move is separate from a complaint by human rights lawyers that seeks charges against six specific Bush administration officials they accuse of creating a legal framework to permit torture of suspects at Guantanamo Bay and other U.S. detention facilities.
Spanish prosecutors said on April 17 that any such probe should be carried out by the U.S. and recommended against it being launched in Spain. Their opinion has been endorsed by Attorney General Candido Conde-Pumpido. Garzon originally had that case, but ultimately it was transferred to another judge, who has yet to decide whether to investigate.

Now, Garzon is opening a separate, broader probe that does not name any specific suspects but targets "possible material authors" of torture, accomplices and those who gave torture orders.
Garzon is acting on his own, rather than in response to a complaint filed with the National Court, which is the usual procedure for universal justice probes in Spain.
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder, speaking with reporters in Berlin before the investigation was announced, did not rule out cooperating with such an investigation.
"Obviously, we would look at any request that would come from a court in any country and see how and whether we should comply with it," Holder said.
"This is an administration that is determined to conduct itself by the rule of law and to the extent that we receive lawful requests from an appropriately-created court, we would obviously respond to it," he said.
Asked if that meant the U.S. would cooperate with a foreign court prosecuting Bush administration officials, Holder said he was talking about evidentiary requests, and would review any such request to see if the United States would comply.
In a 10-page writ, Garzon said documents on Bush-era treatment of prisoners, recently declassified by the Obama administration, "reveal what had been just an intuition: an authorized and systematic plan of torture and mistreatment of persons denied freedom without any charge whatsoever and without the rights enjoyed by any detainee."
Garzon cited media accounts of the documents and said he would ask the U.S. to send the documents to him.
The judge wrote that abuses at Guantanamo and other U.S. prisons for terror suspects, such as the American air base at Bagram, Afghanistan, suggest "the existence of a concerted plan to carry out a multiplicity of crimes of torture."
He said this plan took on "almost an official nature and therefore entails criminal liability in the different structures of execution, command, design and authorization of this systematic plan of torture."
He said he also is acting on the basis of accounts by four former Guantanamo inmates who have alleged in Spanish courts that they were tortured at that U.S. prison in eastern Cuba.
All four were once accused of belonging to a Spanish al-Qaida cell but eventually cleared of the accusations. One is a Spanish citizen, another is a Moroccan citizen who has lived in Spain for more than a decade, and the other two are residents of Britain.
Copyright © 2009 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.

[Conan71]

I believe FOTD has a woodrow right now.