$38 million development being proposed across from BOK Center

[USRufnex]

I'm starting to think it means: "I'm too fat to walk a block."  Just got back from Chicago, where people were noticably fit.  Then I realized how many people used transit, walked and biked around town.  And how many folks walked to work in suits and ties...and tennis shoes.  

You could distinguish between the locals and the tourists.  The tourists were the slow-moving blobs on the sidewalk who looked slightly ill from exertion.  The locals were zipping down the sidewalks at a good 4 mph.  Funny how if you walk a few blocks to work, and a few blocks to the grocery store, and a few blocks to dinner with friends...at the end of the day, you don't need a gym membership!

If Tulsa never paved another acre with surface parking lots, we'd still have an excess of parking for decades to come!

The locals know where they're going... I noticed gaining a few pounds in the months after I moved back to T-town... do miss my place in Rogers Park from time to time... I hope somebody shows the foresight to use the Transit Station as a selling point for the development rather than the traditional drawback...... or would the developers/city try to bulldoze the transit station?

As for tourists, it was funny that the Chicago cab drivers were expecting a bonanza when the World Cup came to Soldier Field in '94.... problem was, the German and Spanish fans turned out to be willing to walk for blocks and/or take the "L"..... fun times, too many shots of Jager........

[DowntownNow]

$1.5 million offer in 2009 versus $1.6 million offer in 2006 from two different prospects.

Sounds like the fair market value to me.

Now let me just get this straight, and I know its a different topic but,...RecycleMichael has maintained in other posts that new developments such as the new Drillers Ballpark Stadium will provide a benefit to all downtown property owners subject to the assessment in the form of increased property values (not a direct but a perceived and speculative at best kind of benefit, not likely allowed under the law but thats besides the point.) 

Here, however, Micahel states that new developments (in this case the BOKCenter) have provided no increase in property value in two years, and almost one year since its completion with the subject parcel in direct proximity to the new publicly financed Arena.  If this sounds like fair market value after two years, where is the increase in land value that is supposed to be the realized benefit of the BID Assessment property payers? 

If the subject parcel can not demonstrate the trumped up benefit to the IDL property owners and it's next door to the venue...how is a parcel on the other side of downtown from the ballpark supposed to benefit exactly?

And btw, the original RFP for that particular parcel was for $1.7 million by the TDA, it was increased to $2.4 million by Jones Lang LaSalle.

[perspicuity85]

This is exciting news for Downtown.
I'd like to think it will spur additional development plans in the arena area.  Hopefully the cheap interest rates will attract more potential developers-- if they can obtain a loan.  Now is really a great time to be developing and managing property for the long haul, if you can afford to do it.

Maybe BOk will develop the land they use for their "autobank" adjacent to the arena.  The whole autobank concept is out of date now with internet banking and debit cards.  It seems like BOk could generate income from that property by contracting with a developer.  They could still put in a normal bank branch as part of a larger development.

[sgrizzle]

They have two downtown branches within  few blocks. They're just waiting on someone to offer up some $$

[RecycleMichael]

Gee, downtownnow...your continual commenting and recall of what I write is an honor and a little scary...

I am glad to know that you are also a real estate expert. You would probably then know that the building of the BokCenter did increase the property value of the lot. It happened when they announced the plans, broke ground and started construction, not eight months after it opens.

[Rico]

Actually... the "fair market value" of land around the BOK should go up over the time since it opened.

If the BOK had opened and been a "flop" the value would have gone down.
But, since the BOK is enjoying something of a Nationwide recognition as a successful venue, the more desirable the property around it will become.

Therefore more "Pay$$$ to Play"

 

[cannon_fodder]

I really don't get the guff about the price on the lot.  It is worth what someone is willing to pay for it.  The last recognized offer for the land was $1.7 million.  They turned that down (this is from info posted on here, I have no knowledge of this). 

To me, it would be wise to maintain control of the strategic land at the cost of $100,000 to the taxpayers.   So if the sale price is $1.6 mil and we get the development we want, than the cost of controlling the land is really $100,000.  Which is probably worth it to direct the development.  Also, remember that the TDA is charged with unloading land - not holding out for a higher price because someone REALLY wants it and by controlling that land they can curtail development (capitalistic blackmail, essentially).

And good point about the value RM.  It would have increased when the plans were announced.   The value has been affirmed as expectations were met or it would have tanked.   I'm willing to be the Tower View Apartments guy would have taken $500,000 before the BOk center was announced, and the sale tag on the Vision Builders structure would have been far less.

[Rico]

So all the "ducks are in a row" here is some info regarding the first proposal received by the TDA for the land.


http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=4732.0

[Johnboy976]

Thank God!! The downtown area needs to grow outside of the its current development projects. Otherwise we look like a bunch of copy-cats, compared to OKC.

[Rico]

Although, this appears to be very similar to the Heavenly Hospitality proposal of 2006, this fellow seems to be connected. In Tulsa that may be the most important thing. We will see.


Developer targets Tulsa arena traffic
by Kirby Lee Davis
The Journal Record May 8, 2009

TULSA – Bob Eggleston faces a race against time.The Tulsa Development Authority agreed Thursday to a 21-day negotiation period with Eggleston for his investor group to buy about 1.5 acres at Third Street and Denver Avenue, a prime spot facing the BOK Center arena entrance.
With that and other lands on the block at his disposal, Eggleston hopes to raise One Place, a projected $38 million to $44 million complex mixing retail, office, lofts and a hotel.
That multilevel project would mine commercial opportunities relatively untapped since the 18,000-seat arena opened in September.
But even if the partnership One Development LLC reaches an agreement with the TDA, that still puts the project three or more years away from opening – a long lag time when trying to change instilled consumer habits against shopping and dining downtown.
Some restaurant operators have grumbled about concert-goers spending little money during their downtown visits. One restaurant that opened last year, anticipating strong BOK Center business, has already closed.
"Sometimes they come here, sometimes it is not so good," said Mariana Rojas, who with her husband, Guillermo, moved their Latin grill Casa Laredo to the Adams Hotel Building in September, just a block away from the Vision 2025 arena.
With a national recession slowly creeping into the Tulsa economy, some analysts fear the arena's novelty and curiosity factors could fade within consumers over those three construction years, returning a sense of routine and indifference.
"Traditional retail doesn't work there," analyst Bob Parker said of modern downtown environments. "There's too many alternatives closer to where they live. And you can't just live off of the one or two events, that big concert every month."
Eggleston understands the challenge. As the former construction director on the BOK Center, he often wondered why no developer moved on his targeted lot.
"You have to create a critical mass to keep people downtown," Eggleston said. "One restaurant does not do that."
By mixing residential with restaurants, retail, office and hospitality, Eggleston said One Place will create a self-sustaining synergy that may capitalize on potential arena business.
The project would benefit from several other downtown residential efforts coming online during his construction period, along with the renovated Tulsa Convention Center and the Oneok Field ballpark to debut next year.
Parker said those steps could sustain and build downtown momentum for a project like One Place.
"I don't think it's much of a risk at all," said Ben Edwards, a consultant to Eggleston who also worked with him on the arena. "The Blue Dome District shows the market and the need. People are just a little bit hesitant to step out in a downtown that has been vacant for so long."
After considering this development for months, Eggleston gathered support in January from a variety of financial and business leaders, including multifamily developer Leinbach Properties, Hilton Hotels, hotel financier American Liberty Hospitality, Miles Associates, Cooper Construction Estimating and D.P. Consultants. A PowerPoint presentation by Eggleston cited financial backing from a local development consortium and other team members.
"This is a local deal," he said, explaining how he obtained financial commitments so rapidly. "This is not outside investors."
Cheyenne Development, which Eggleston has a stake in, bought one of the two buildings on the targeted block, the two-story Tulsa Vision Builders site. Eggleston said Concorde Development of Oklahoma, which owns the former Towerview apartment property, has pledged to participate in One Place or sell that building.
Both existing structures would be torn down for One Place.
Eggleston made his first presentation to the Tulsa Development Authority two weeks ago, offering several letters of support to verify his financial backing.
One Development proposed a $1.5 million purchase price for the TDA property, with the authority making the site shovel-ready before transferal.
Eggleston projects it will take One Development a year or more before workers may break ground. He projected construction would take two more years after that.
The design remains fluid, with Eggleston offering only general outlines of what One Place could offer. His PowerPoint touted a development with a 120-room hotel, 40-plus lofts, 15,000 square feet of office and retail space. But as he discussed One Place, he mentioned how certain elements could change dramatically depending on market demand. With all the restaurant interest already drawn, he speculated Thursday that retail space could grow to 20,000 square feet or more.
"You can't have a project until you own the land," he said with a smile.
That's where time factors in to Eggleston's plan. Although construction inflation stabilized this year, Eggleston expects it to return with a fury, perhaps raising his budget $1 million annually.
"All of these things take a lot of time," said Parker, vice president of retail for GBR Properties of Tulsa. "That two- to three-year time frame, while it takes long, is pretty realistic."
While he understood the challenges seeking to arena customers, Parker suggested the consumer spending slowdown probably played a role in restaurant traffic concerns. With the ballpark coming online, he said downtown restaurants and retailers could garner more excitement.
Parker said the mix of residential, service retail and hospitality could make One Place a starting point for redeveloping the BOK Center district.
"If they can tie all that in, something like this could lead to something real finally getting done," he said.
"Just the fact that someone can announce this, this year, in this economy, is pretty optimistic," said Parker. "There's not a lot of communities that could even try to pull off something like this right now."

Stepping aside on this one

With her son-in-law involved in Cheyenne Development, Tulsa Mayor Kathy Taylor has formally notified the city of Tulsa city clerk of a potential conflict of interest with anything involving Cheyenne and the One Development proposal across the street from the BOK Center. Taylor said she would refer any issues involving the project to Amy Polonchek, her chief of staff.

[carltonplace]

"That multilevel project would mine commercial opportunities relatively untapped since the 18,000-seat arena opened in September.
But even if the partnership One Development LLC reaches an agreement with the TDA, that still puts the project three or more years away from opening – a long lag time when trying to change instilled consumer habits against shopping and dining downtown.
Some restaurant operators have grumbled about concert-goers spending little money during their downtown visits. One restaurant that opened last year, anticipating strong BOK Center business, has already closed.
"Sometimes they come here, sometimes it is not so good," said Mariana Rojas, who with her husband, Guillermo, moved their Latin grill Casa Laredo to the Adams Hotel Building in September, just a block away from the Vision 2025 arena.
With a national recession slowly creeping into the Tulsa economy, some analysts fear the arena's novelty and curiosity factors could fade within consumers over those three construction years, returning a sense of routine and indifference.
"Traditional retail doesn't work there," analyst Bob Parker said of modern downtown environments. "There's too many alternatives closer to where they live. And you can't just live off of the one or two events, that big concert every month."
Eggleston understands the challenge. As the former construction director on the BOK Center, he often wondered why no developer moved on his targeted lot."




I don't get why everyone is so afraid of downtown. To me Utica Ave does not seem much different in the amount of traffic than Denver Ave, but Utica (between 11th and 25th) has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Why wouldn't a developer expect the same or better in downtown?

[SXSW]

Perceptions are changing about downtown and will continue to change for the better.  I think small-scale retail, mostly restaurants, would work the best by the arena just because that is a rather awkward area of downtown, at least right now.  I think if you put a hotel in like is proposed with the 'urban Hilton' and then another larger 'convention hotel' on the city hall/library site in the future you all of a sudden have lots of people in that area and not just for events.  Build a new federal building/post office (maybe on the BOK drivethru site?) and turn the Page Belcher into a city park that doubles as an outdoor stage/festival space in between the hotel, convention center, and arena.  That of course is getting way ahead of ourseleves but getting this huge surface lot developed, especially if it includes restaurants/retail along Denver, 3rd, Cheyenne, AND a medium-sized hotel AND apartments would be a big step in the right direction. 

I do hope whatever goes in there is fairly modern but with traditional form.  I've posted about it before but there is a great full block mixed-use development in Seattle that I saw on my trip there last September that would be a good model to follow, it includes residential, a hotel, some stores, a few restaurants, and a Whole Foods:

[TheArtist]

"That multilevel project would mine commercial opportunities relatively untapped since the 18,000-seat arena opened in September.
But even if the partnership One Development LLC reaches an agreement with the TDA, that still puts the project three or more years away from opening – a long lag time when trying to change instilled consumer habits against shopping and dining downtown.
Some restaurant operators have grumbled about concert-goers spending little money during their downtown visits. One restaurant that opened last year, anticipating strong BOK Center business, has already closed.
"Sometimes they come here, sometimes it is not so good," said Mariana Rojas, who with her husband, Guillermo, moved their Latin grill Casa Laredo to the Adams Hotel Building in September, just a block away from the Vision 2025 arena.
With a national recession slowly creeping into the Tulsa economy, some analysts fear the arena's novelty and curiosity factors could fade within consumers over those three construction years, returning a sense of routine and indifference.
"Traditional retail doesn't work there," analyst Bob Parker said of modern downtown environments. "There's too many alternatives closer to where they live. And you can't just live off of the one or two events, that big concert every month."
Eggleston understands the challenge. As the former construction director on the BOK Center, he often wondered why no developer moved on his targeted lot."




I don't get why everyone is so afraid of downtown. To me Utica Ave does not seem much different in the amount of traffic than Denver Ave, but Utica (between 11th and 25th) has changed dramatically in the last 10 years. Why wouldn't a developer expect the same or better in downtown?

I bet that section of Utica gets 5 times the traffic. Denver isnt really a through street to anywhere so to speak. I go down Utica to get to Utica Square or Cherry Street and downtown, 21st, etc. all the time. There are lots of reasons to go down that street and lots of times I would do so. Only time I go down that section of Denver is when I miss a turn or forget about a one way street on another street and I am downtown trying to get somewhere there lol. Downtown, and its streets in general, is a destination, not a through street.  

As for the restaurant in the Adams Hotel. I have driven right by that building several times in the last week. I never once noticed there was a restaurant in that building. On the one hand I have heard there is a restaurant there, I know there is supposed to be one there. But if I drive by and dont notice it... its not there. I am fairly familiar with downtown and if I dont catch it, I know danged well that most suburbanites or people visiting downtown are not going to catch that there is a restaurant there. There are/were several restaurants in the area like that, which unless your in the know, or are specifically looking for it, the average person isnt going to notice at all.

These places have GOT to make themselves more noticeable if they want people to notice them. Put out a couple of chairs and a small table out front to let people know they exist and are open. A sign painted on a window, which may look dark from the outside... there are hundreds of signs on hundreds of windows downtown and people arent going to bother in the least, reading all of them,,, doctors office, dentist, law office, printer, bar, company x y z, etc. etc. You got to catch peoples eye in one instance and let them know your a restaurant and your open.

I have not noticed an open restaurant in that building, not once in the many times I have been by there. If I havent, I guarantee you most of the people going to the arena will not either.  

[SXSW]

I bet that section of Utica gets 5 times the traffic. Denver isnt really a through street to anywhere so to speak. I go down Utica to get to Utica Square or Cherry Street and downtown, 21st, etc. all the time.

To me Denver is basically an extension of Riverside which is one of the busiest streets in the city and the street many use to access downtown.  Denver, Main, Boston, and Elgin (IMO) should be the main N-S streets for new development of retail, along with 3rd, 5th, and 6th (also 1st and 2nd in Blue Dome) 

[dsjeffries]

As for the restaurant in the Adams Hotel. I have driven right by that building several times in the last week. I never once noticed there was a restaurant in that building. On the one hand I have heard there is a restaurant there, I know there is supposed to be one there. But if I drive by and dont notice it... its not there. I am fairly familiar with downtown and if I dont catch it, I know danged well that most suburbanites or people visiting downtown are not going to catch that there is a restaurant there. There are/were several restaurants in the area like that, which unless your in the know, or are specifically looking for it, the average person isnt going to notice at all.

These places have GOT to make themselves more noticeable if they want people to notice them. Put out a couple of chairs and a small table out front to let people know they exist and are open. A sign painted on a window, which may look dark from the outside... there are hundreds of signs on hundreds of windows downtown and people arent going to bother in the least, reading all of them,,, doctors office, dentist, law office, printer, bar, company x y z, etc. etc. You got to catch peoples eye in one instance and let them know your a restaurant and your open.

I have not noticed an open restaurant in that building, not once in the many times I have been by there. If I havent, I guarantee you most of the people going to the arena will not either.  

Artist, the problem that restaurant faces is not due to visibility or people's perceptions of downtown. Their problem is terrible food. Mr. Rojas has mentioned that the restaurant is only busy on event days. Well, it's likely that a different set of 18,000 BOKC-goers, some out-of-towners, see the restaurant and decide to try it. It only makes sense that this set of people, having received terrible service and worse food, will NOT go back during the week. People will continue to only go there when desperate because it's awful. When other restaurants open in the area, Casa Laredo won't even be busy during peak times.

Other restaurants in downtown don't have this problem, so one has to wonder why this one keeps popping up on the news, declaring again, "Woe is me". Please. Get better food and better staff and people will go there. Until then, shut up about your slow business.

//end vent