Jesse Ventura's take on torture

[rwarn17588]

I'm not disparaging his service to the country, I appreciate he served, but saying someone who served in the SEALs or other special ops 40 years ago gives them more credibility than a VP who has been out of office for 3 months is total moronic BS.

I suspect we've gained quite a bit of information from "torture" that has kept us safe than we will ever be allowed to know.  Playing political football with interrogation methods that protect our national security interests is bed-wetting at it's absolute worst.

For all the complaining about a "political football" and torture, I find it fascinating that Cheney can't stop flapping his gums about it. Some real serious charges about him are starting to dribble out. If I were his attorney, I'd tell him to shut the hell up, before he incriminates himself (if he hasn't already done so). At the very least, Cheney's backing himself into a corner, big time.

[USRufnex]

I suspect we've gained quite a bit of information from "torture" that has kept us safe than we will ever be allowed to know.  Playing political football with interrogation methods that protect our national security interests is bed-wetting at it's absolute worst.

We've got far bigger problems in the country right now than worrying about a few hundred asshat renegades being water-boarded.  Why are we taking a limp-wristed approach to national security interests?

I suspect you're wrong... I suspect we are not taking "a limp-wristed approach" but the lies will continue from so-called patriotic dipwads who don't understand there is an honest argument here... and it is not some sort of made for media spectacle between neocon warmongers and liberal surrender monkeys...

Nice pic of the Murrah Building, Guido...

Should we have waterboarded the right-wing anti-government extremists to find John Doe #2 and others who helped bomb the Murrah Building?

If we had waterboarded some of the muslim students in Norman a few hours/days/weeks after the time of the OKC bombing, what would they have told us?  Would they have confessed?  If they didn't confess, what kind of information would they have given us?  Would it have been reliable?

[rwarn17588]

If we had waterboarded some of the muslim students in Norman a few hours/days/weeks after the time of the OKC bombing, what would they have told us?  Would they have confessed?  If they didn't confess, what kind of information would they have given us?  Would it have been reliable?

Not to mention if it were a coerced confession, it would have compromised the entire integrity of the case. Torture in Chicago police interrogation rooms was the reason a bunch of death-row cases in Illinois was commuted.

You'd be pretty stupid to use torture on a suspect if you've already got the goods on him. There's no sense in risking taint in the investigation, nor planting doubt in a judge's or jury's ear about the evidence. You don't want to screw it up so bad that he goes free.

That's one big thing about torture -- if it gets out, your whole investigation or chances of a successful prosecution is screwed.

[Conan71]

I suspect you're wrong... I suspect we are not taking "a limp-wristed approach" but the lies will continue from so-called patriotic dipwads who don't understand there is an honest argument here... and it is not some sort of made for media spectacle between neocon warmongers and liberal surrender monkeys...

Nice pic of the Murrah Building, Guido...

Should we have waterboarded the right-wing anti-government extremists to find John Doe #2 and others who helped bomb the Murrah Building?

If we had waterboarded some of the muslim students in Norman a few hours/days/weeks after the time of the OKC bombing, what would they have told us?  Would they have confessed?  If they didn't confess, what kind of information would they have given us?  Would it have been reliable?

Nice strawman...

You make it sound as if the military or CIA is gratuitously waterboarding anyone of arabic descent they feel like. 

[patric]

I suspect we've gained quite a bit of information from "torture" that has kept us safe than we will ever be allowed to know. 

Ill have to find the citation, but the record states that all useful intelligence obtained from detainees was acquired during normal questioning, and that the later torture produced no additional credible information.

[FOTD]

Those deadheads......

Say what you may, he's the real deal.

[rwarn17588]

Y'know, if torture is so damned great and effective, why aren't any the proponents advocating a U.S. withdrawal from the rules of the Geneva Convention?

[guido911]

Not to mention if it were a coerced confession, it would have compromised the entire integrity of the case. Torture in Chicago police interrogation rooms was the reason a bunch of death-row cases in Illinois was commuted.

You'd be pretty stupid to use torture on a suspect if you've already got the goods on him. There's no sense in risking taint in the investigation, nor planting doubt in a judge's or jury's ear about the evidence. You don't want to screw it up so bad that he goes free.

That's one big thing about torture -- if it gets out, your whole investigation or chances of a successful prosecution is screwed.

Who cares about getting a conviction. Your treating terrorism like its a run-of-the-mill criminal investigation like fraud rather than an act of war. I was talking about waterboarding and caterpillering people that had knowledge of an impending attack and that obtaining that knowledge would save lives. The lengths that you and others go to change the subject from EITing AQ terrorists (whom have CONFESSED and take great joy in the killing of thousands of Americans) to essentially EITing the average American just minding their own business is mind boggling. Whose side are you on?

[Conan71]

Ill have to find the citation, but the record states that all useful intelligence obtained from detainees was acquired during normal questioning, and that the later torture produced no additional credible information.

And that would be non-classified records.  There's quite a bit we will never know, and for good reason.

[rwarn17588]

Whose side are you on?

Well, the law's, for one thing. As a person who claims to be an attorney, I'd think you'd understand that.

[Conan71]

Well, the law's, for one thing. As a person who claims to be an attorney, I'd think you'd understand that.

If the laws (or interpretation thereof) were absolute, we wouldn't need attornies. 

[guido911]

Well, the law's, for one thing. As a person who claims to be an attorney, I'd think you'd understand that.

The law's side? Well tell that to those in the photo I provided. And by the way, I do not "claim" to be a lawyer, I am one. But I'm an American first who could give a sh*t about AQ terrorist's alleged "rights", which plainly you do more than the lives of your countrymen.  Oh, and spare me your sophistry and high brow "the law is more important the lawlessnes by government" screed. Placing an insect in the cell of a terrorist is not illegal or making him listen to the Barney theme song is not "torture". Shoot, Jesse "the Body" was apparently waterboarded as part of military training. I was placed in a gas chamber and gassed with real chemicals in basic training. Isn't that a war crime? Meh, what would you know about military training.  

[FOTD]

The law's side? Well tell that to those in the photo I provided. And by the way, I do not "claim" to be a lawyer, I am one. But I'm an American first who could give a sh*t about AQ terrorist's alleged "rights", which plainly you do more than the lives of your countrymen.  Oh, and spare me your sophistry and high brow "the law is more important the lawlessnes by government" screed. Placing an insect in the cell of a terrorist is not illegal or making him listen to the Barney theme song is not "torture". Shoot, Jesse "the Body" was apparently waterboarded as part of military training. I was placed in a gas chamber and gassed with real chemicals in basic training. Isn't that a war crime? Meh, what would you know about military training.  

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED! YOU'VE BEEN DISABLED!

[we vs us]

Who cares about getting a conviction. Your treating terrorism like its a run-of-the-mill criminal investigation like fraud rather than an act of war. I was talking about waterboarding and caterpillering people that had knowledge of an impending attack and that obtaining that knowledge would save lives. The lengths that you and others go to change the subject from EITing AQ terrorists (whom have CONFESSED and take great joy in the killing of thousands of Americans) to essentially EITing the average American just minding their own business is mind boggling. Whose side are you on?

Actually, you're dead wrong. Our country pioneered the "legalization" of warfare in the modern era, ie. the application of international law to warfare.  The creation of the UN, the Geneva Conventions, etc . . . all of them were at our behest.  The structure that we created helped make it possible for so many Nazis to be tried and found guilty of crimes against humanity of which they were certainly guilty.  Without our support -- and our explicit embrace of the use of law to try and convict the ideological leaders of the movement -- Nuremburg might never have happened. 

I'm not sure why I have to tell a lawyer this, but war and terrorism both have huge legal dimensions, and by using internationally recognized forms of torture, we've completely destroyed the ability to try these people.  You can rant and rage and foam at the mouth all you want, but doing what I suspect you'd like -- a public execution perhaps? -- would be the final nail in the coffin of our moral standing with the world.

Essentially, you're saying we can do whatever we want to do with our prisoners because we know they're guilty, and because we're at war.  But you're wrong.  Even when we're at war, we're bound by laws.  Laws which we ourselves created.   

[Conan71]

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED! YOU'VE BEEN DISABLED!

I guess an elephant wouldn't notice a hamster, now would it?