Iran Situation REALLY Heating Up

[Hoss]

i'm such a miserable failure I don't even know what a G5 is. There's like one or two Bentleys in town. Saw one in the drive thru at Braums. Nouveau riche?

Gulfstream V

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulfstream_V

[waterboy]

Gulfstream V

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulfstream_V

Oh. I flew in a Gulfstream back in the day when only oil companies had such things for their executives. Ate cookies in the cockpit with the pilots. Nice plane.

[USRufnex]

Really, when we began in the early 90s we were living in a small apartment, working minimum wage jobs (sound a little like you so far), and in college. WE earned everything we have through years of hard work and sacrifice (Oh, and I do quite well in my own right). Wealth envy is freakin hilarious thing sometimes. Now, I have to take my Bentley to the airport to get on my G-5 and fly to New York for dinner and a show. You? Ramen noodles and a porno?

"Wealth envy?"

In your dreams.

I actually admire wealth and many of the wealthy folks out there.

Over the years, I've admired people like Lee Iococca, Sam Walton, Warren Buffet, and that notorious "bundler" for Barack Obama, aka George Kaiser.  Do you think it was mere coincidence that Obama and Biden said the words "early childhood education" in each and every debate?!?  I don't think so.  (but I for one am grateful BOk doesn't stand for "Bank of Kansas" because it certainly could have gone that way back in the bad old days).

If it weren't for wealthy people, I would never have been able to afford to go to college.  Call it a "public/private partnership" if you want..... thank God my scholarship was for full tuition rather than a mere $$$ amount, because my private-school tuition nearly tripled at my alma mater during the 80s.... college loans were mostly for room-and-board after Pell Grants vanished for me during the Reagan administration.  Reagan RAISED MY TAXES at a time when I was least able to afford it.  Lost a college loan during the Gramm-Rudman budget cuts.... had to work graveyard shifts while still trying to do all the extracurriculars required for my scholarships.  And the jobs I worked in college were, for the most part, at or attached to minimum wage.  And minimum wage was stuck on $3.35 per hour from 1981 - 1990.  Just like it was stuck from 1997 - 2007.

But I didn't pi$$ and moan about it..... not at the time, anyway.

I supported George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton's efforts to raise minimum wage in the 90s so LOSERS like yourself could have enough $$$ to buy ramen noodles AND porn.  

While you were doing all that and a bag o' chips.....

I was getting AGMA union wages doing chorus work for Lyric Opera of Chicago, and getting paid to do a local gig singing a lead role in La Boheme with Miss Poland 1987 (who actually had brains and talent, unlike that Carrie Prejean chick), taking day jobs that paid far above the minimum wage so I'd be able to afford voice lessons, earned a scholarship to study bel canto at the Britten-Pears School with a world renowned soprano.... at the time, it was popular for people like me to incorporate their names as a business rather than file the standard personal income tax.  Why?  Because you could deduct a xxxx-load of "business expenses" that wouldn't have been allowed any other way......

And the large number of wealthy donors and philanthropists I've sung for over the years at opera galas, fundraisers, wine-and-cheese's, etc. have two words to describe people like yourself.  In a nutshell....

NEW.  MONEY.

You know, this country has had a progressive tax code in one form or another since the civil war.  You should be grateful for what you have and stop pi$$ing and moaning over Obama taking us back to the Clinton tax code, which is historically closer to a flat tax than all the tax codes under every single American president from 1932 to 1984.

/rant.

[Conan71]

You? Ramen noodles and a porno?

sharp today, gwee.

Interesting Ruf.  It's supposed to be the goal of wealth distribution of creating a class of new money.  Once they have made it, now they deserve our scorn because they made too much and bought nice cars, houses, and bought tickets to the opera.  Now they are to be lampooned for their success.

Glad to know how that works.

[waterboy]

You're not that naive Conan. Been on the planet longer than that. Equalizing wealth distribution doesn't create new classes of money. It plumps up existing classes that are determined more by upbringing than the money itself. IOW, when you dump lottery winnings on an old man from the ghetto, he's now just a rich old man from the ghetto. Same values, same issues, same education. The wealth magnifies those characteristics.

My noting of a guy with a Bentley lined up in the Braums drive thru with Ford Escorts is a local, and not too uncommon, example of nouveau riche. The Lorton's don't do that. These newbies are naturally scorned by classes of people who have lived their entire lives off trust money that their families created. It is the same scorn that working class folk have for the trust funders. They each lampoon each other.

The term was coined to describe the gaudy excesses of the Vanderbilts once the Commodore made his fortune destroying those less ruthless than himself. He had been blue collar and tried too hard to match the blue bloods of his time. Plus ca change, plus ca changere. ('scuse my pitiful French).

[cannon_fodder]

A fool and his money are soon parted.  Old money folk can act like jackasses for a couple generations before they piss it away.  Their parents earned the right for their children to be asses if they so choose.

Or, they can not be asses and turn their money into REAL money, a la George Kaiser.  The guy was born with a silver spoon in his mouth, but now it is platinum.    And good for him.  He has generated a boat load of wealth for thousands of other people in the process.

New money people can, of course, also act the fool.  More likely than not they have earned their own money, so do with it what you please.  In fact, go out and get in legal trouble for me, would ya'? 

If you made your own fortune or took your father fortune and doubled it, I have a ton of respect for you.  If you have a fortune or a trust fund that was left to you and remains stable, you neither gain nor lose my respect.  If you work as a mechanic, pay your bills, and are a decent guy - so much the same.  It's just money.  New, old, or not there (me).  You can be a dude with money, or without it.

I find it hilarious that people who inherited their fortunes mock people who have worked for theirs.  Particularly because the Forbes 500 has more of the latter and the former usually see their fortunes shrinking.  Someday I hope to be mocked as "new money."  I'm currently mocked as "not money."


(as an interesting side note:  all the old money families were once new money families.  Even here in Tulsa all our great landmarks are named for new money families.  Then they turned into old money families and the giving levels dropped way off unless a family trust was established to do it for them.

Same way with immigrants.  All the "old immigrants" make it hard on the new immigrants.  The English hated the Germans, who hated the Irish, who got to fight with the Italians, who could still keep the Asians down, who had a leg up on the Africans, who can now join in the dislike of the Mexicans.  Kinda like adding a new kid to the family, you are no longer the youngest brother.)

[USRufnex]

sharp today, gwee.

Interesting Ruf.  It's supposed to be the goal of wealth distribution of creating a class of new money.  Once they have made it, now they deserve our scorn because they made too much and bought nice cars, houses, and bought tickets to the opera.  Now they are to be lampooned for their success.

Glad to know how that works.

Gee Conan.  Cherry pick much?

I'm not sure where you're coming from, Cascia boy?  Did a previous comment or two about mumsy and dadsy in the past hurt your feelings... ?   The only "new money" people who should be "lampooned for their success" are the ones who wear their military service and recently acquired personal wealth on their sleeves....  

I do not scorn Guido for his money.  

Guido should be scorned due to his shamelessly partisan obsession with a small increase in the tax rate for monies earned over $250k.  A return to the tax structure of the Clinton economy.  A blip in the historical tradition we have in AMERICA of a progressive income tax system.



And he should be scorned for his insistence that he will actively engage in a vain attempt to parlay his "new money" into philanthropic tendencies to be used to punish those people who voted for Barack Obama.

I remember running into egos like this in the opera donor world.  Trust me, there are plenty of "new money" people out there who are perfectly fine.  And plenty of limo-liberals who can be pretty clueless.  But Guido reeks of the "new money" stereotype-- folks who insist on using their charitable donations to endorse their own egos and leverage their own biases and personal agendas....

Well, I could actually be of help to dear Guido, even more if I were paid well.  

One freebee for ya:  Donate to the Signature Symphony and G. Barry Epperley-- they are local and community oriented (and more likely to have voted for McCain)... then systematically shun any and all fundraisers for the Tulsa Symphony because their group jets in Obama loving instrumentalists from Chicago to fill out their merry little band...... 

"New money."  

My use and definition of this term is not to be used to scorn the hard work that made others successful.  It is a recognition of the oftentimes narrow-minded focus and lack of humility from those who've recently come into their own and amassed their own fortunes.  

After singing for one of those private opera donor get togethers back in the day, I had the wife of a university president confide in me that she was frustrated at being stuck in the "middle class."  Kinda funny at the time, because she had a chauffeur, a chef, a housekeeper and a butler..... it was easier to empathize with her, only after realizing that she had to keep all that "hired help" due to the importance of "keeping up appearances," which in turn keeps money flowing into the university's endowment and the building fund, etc, etc.  It's always easier to build buildings and endow chairs than it is to raise funds for operational expenses....

I met an oil company vice-president who was fascinated by my artistic struggles-- I tried to ask him about what he did, he would have none of it; a few months later, I met a chair of the district Met Auditions who insisted upon interrupting my conversation with my grand-dad to make it clear how IMPORTANT he was to the city of Tulsa....

And so it goes...

[waterboy]

We've all been exposed to new money folks I suppose. I met plenty when I was selling real estate when Reagan came to office. A young debutante I was showing around kept name dropping to impress me. She made it clear that she wanted a home near Harwelden where she was soon to be married. (Wasted on me as I didn't know what a Harwelden was.) On one memorable trip where they wanted to see some Maple Ridge homes (they were income qualified), she pointed to one of the old homes and sniffed "that's where the Jones' live. They do their own yardwork you know. Can you imagine?"

At that time most of the big homes around in MR were owned by plumbing, electrical and carpentry contractors as they were the only ones who could afford the expense of updating them. They were the first to understand the quality and beauty of the homes and helped turn the hood around.  I dropped her and her fiance off at her parents home in Park Plaza, a clean stable, but moderate neighborhood. She was insufferable.

[guido911]

Back on topic, it is reported that Iran has hanged six Mousavi supporters. Time for another ice cream trip, eh Barry?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246296541275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

[waterboy]

Nah, Gweed. We need to nuke em before this gets out of hand.

[USRufnex]

Back on topic, it is reported that Iran has hanged six Mousavi supporters. Time for another ice cream trip, eh Barry?

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246296541275&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Obama takes his daughters out for ice cream...... violence and protest in Iran...... oh, the humanity!   

http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2009/06/21/Obama-daughters-head-for-ice-cream/UPI-76471245601822/

Yeah, too bad we didn't have President Mark Sanford, because he certainly would never have taken his kids out for ice cream......   

[USRufnex]

Influential Iranian conservative accuses Mousavi of being US agent and committing treason
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/nation-world/sns-ap-ml-iran-election,0,639735.story

"It has to be asked whether the actions of (Mousavi and his supporters) are in response to instructions of American authorities," said Hossein Shariatmadari in an editorial appearing in the conservative daily Kayhan.

Shariatmadari doesn't hold a government position but is the powerful director of the Kayhan newspaper group and a close adviser to Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. He added that Mousavi was trying to "escape punishment for murdering innocent people, holding riots, cooperating with foreigners and acting as America's fifth column inside the country."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hardline Iran editor calls for Mousavi to face trial
By Fredrik Dahl
and Hossein JasebPosted 2009/07/04 at 7:42 am EDT (Reuters)
http://www.newsdaily.com/stories/l4465952-us-iran/

In a commentary published in his hardline Kayhan daily, editor-in-chief Hossein Shariatmadari suggested Mousavi and his supporters in last month's disputed election had acted on the instructions of the United States.

"An open court, in front of the people's eyes, must deal with the all the terrible crimes and clear betrayal committed by the main elements behind the recent unrest, including Mousavi and Khatami," he wrote, referring to former President Mohammad Khatami, a leading reformist who backed Mousavi in the election.

Another hardline newspaper, Javan, said 100 members of parliament had signed a letter to the judiciary calling for the leaders of "post-election riots" to face trial, pointing to Mousavi and fellow defeated moderate Mehdi Karoubi.
-----------------------------
"All they did and said was in line with the instructions announced by American officials in the past," Shariatmadari, who is close to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, wrote.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, does this make Shariatmadari the Rupert Murdock of Iranian journalism?

Too bad John McCain couldn't give the conservative Iranian press some more incendiary quotes as POTUS to use for propaganda purposes.....   

[Townsend]

Iran Calls GOP Letter 'Propaganda Ploy,' Offers To 'Enlighten' Authors

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors

Republican senators' letter to Iran about ongoing nuclear talks has prompted a lengthy response from Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif, who delivered an overview of international law as he critiqued the letter.

Zarif said he was astonished by the letter, saying it suggests the U.S. lawmakers "not only do not understand international law" — a subject in which he is a professor — "but are not fully cognizant of the nuances of their own Constitution when it comes to presidential powers in the conduct of foreign policy," according to Iran's Foreign Ministry.

The Iranian minister said that "in our view, this letter has no legal value and is mostly a propaganda ploy."

His response (we have more of it below) came after it was announced Monday that 47 Senate Republicans who oppose a potential deal with Iran over its nuclear program had signed a letter to the country's leaders.

Coming two weeks before the deadline for envoys to reach general terms with Iran, the signatories wrote that they had been observing the negotiations over potentially relaxing economic sanctions — and told Iran's leaders they were concerned "that you may not fully understand our constitutional system."

The letter seemed to strike a nerve for Zarif, who moved to the U.S. as a teenager and holds a doctorate and two other advanced degrees from American universities.

As NPR's It's All Politics blog noted, "The letter was written by freshman Arkansas Sen. Tom Cotton and co-signed by 46 of his GOP colleagues, including Majority Leader Mitch McConnell."

The senators cited the U.S. process of ratifying treaties in Congress and President Obama's term that expires in January of 2017, writing:

"What these two constitutional provisions mean is that we will consider any agreement regarding your nuclear-weapons program that is not approved by Congress as nothing more than an executive agreement between President Obama and Ayatollah Khamenei. The next president could revoke such an executive agreement with the stroke of a pen and future Congresses could modify the terms of the agreement at any time."

The Republicans' message was quickly criticized by Vice President Joe Biden, a former senator who said it was "beneath the dignity of an institution I revere."

Seven Republicans did not sign the letter, as NPR's Ailsa Chang reported today on Morning Edition.

President Obama said, "I think it's somewhat ironic to see some members of Congress wanting to make common cause with the hard-liners in Iran" who are also against making a deal over Iran's nuclear program.

Zarif, noting that negotiations are ongoing and haven't yielded an agreement, said the U.S. lawmakers' "unconventional methods" show that they "are opposed to any agreement, regardless of its content."

Saying he hopes to "enrich the knowledge of the authors," Zarif said:

"I should bring one important point to the attention of the authors and that is, the world is not the United States, and the conduct of inter-state relations is governed by international law, and not by US domestic law. The authors may not fully understand that in international law, governments represent the entirety of their respective states, are responsible for the conduct of foreign affairs, are required to fulfill the obligations they undertake with other states and may not invoke their internal law as justification for failure to perform their international obligations."

Zarif also noted that many previous international agreements the U.S. has been a party to have been "mere executive agreements," and not full treaties that received Senate ratification.

He said any deal on sanctions and Iran's nuclear program would not be bilateral; would require approval by the U.N. and the U.N. Security Council; and would not be subject to modification by Congress.

He added, "I wish to enlighten the authors that if the next administration revokes any agreement with the stroke of a pen, as they boast, it will have simply committed a blatant violation of international law."

For a different perspective, Ailsa spoke to Richard Nephew, who was on U.S. teams negotiating with Iran during both the Bush and Obama administrations.

Nephew said, "The idea that a sitting group of senators of either party would write to the other side of a negotiation to say, 'Eh, don't sign a deal with these guys' — to me, it really smacks of a misplaced understanding of how the international system is supposed to work."

Murica

[guido911]

Iran Calls GOP Letter 'Propaganda Ploy,' Offers To 'Enlighten' Authors

http://publicradiotulsa.org/post/iran-calls-gop-letter-propaganda-ploy-offers-enlighten-authors



Murica

I have been LOVING this story develop over the past 24 hours. Never before have I seen so many people calling the 47 senators "treasonous", but apparently being completely oblivious that our president is negotiating a nuclear deal with a state sponsor of terror. A country that kidnapped Americans for more than one year, and was implicated in helping the Taliban fight Americans. And I will spare the lengthy recitation of its involvement in international terrorism.

[Breadburner]

O'bama just heard about all this on the news....Like everyone else......