WNBA for Tulsa?

[USRufnex]

Still taking the bait so easily. I wouldn't joke about it otherwise.

And that quote from two years ago (let go easily?) was in response to, guess what, your constant lies. I got tired of posting "the sky is blue" and having you claim I posted that the sky is red. Same old tactics from you -- you sling lies about me and my posts over and over, I finally get sick of it and call you on it, and that makes ME the problem child.

Bait.  Er, uh... right.

One of the first posts I read in Tulsa Now's hatchet job thread against MLS and former Mayor LaFortune back in Dec 2005 was the reply in which you said "a stadium is not a stadium is not a stadium" and then you compared a proposed MLS stadium's "footprint" to The Rose Bowl... you can say "lie lie lie" all you want, but YOU posted it.  You also made arguments using Sportyart's posts with NFL or MLB stadiums including Phoenix's new NFL/MLB stadium as examples of multi-use, then had the nerve to call me a liar for bringing up those posts and your opinions at the time...... you gave examples of "multi-use" stadia that wouldn't be acceptable to MLS or the Drillers... you insisted that CS&L's feasibility study recommended a suburban soccer stadium model when it clearly recommended both a suburban model with youth fields around it OR an option for downtown without the fields-- because nobody could predict which would ultimately work better.... and yes, Virginia, you did resort to a WNBA argument against an MLS team, simultaneously insulting both leagues... it is not my fault that the posts in question were deleted in such a way and with the kind of timing that made me wonder whether Tulsa Now has certain "admin" people who were systematically playing head games...

And all because Global Development Partners was going to put a mixed use development with a soccer stadium in an area (6th and Elgin) where AJ (and others)  desperately wanted a ballpark... and so the posts for page after page focused on arguing all conceivable and inconceivable opposition you could come up with...... dealing with the multiple positions (and multiple personalities) against MLS in Tulsa  was akin to trying to round up a herd of cats....

[USRufnex]

Back on topic, when you look at the timeline, this appears to be Clay Bennett's payback to Kathy Taylor for her strong endorsement of the NBA in OKC last year.

Jan 2008 -- Clay Bennett sells the WNBA team he owns to a Seattle group for $10mil.

April 2008 -- Mayor Kathy Taylor publicly and aggressively endorses and supports the NBA in OKC.
Taylor pushes partnership with Oklahoma City
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=11&articleid=20080423_1_A9_spanc50745&archive=yes

April 2008 -- NBA approves Sonics move to OKC.

July 2008 -- The move to OKC from Seattle is made official, OKC chooses a team name, and OKC's ownership group buys the Tulsa 66ers.

July 2008 -- A WNBA survey appears in the Tulsa World
Study targets Tulsa's interest in WNBA franchise
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectid=226&articleid=20080722_226_B1_hWOMEN242874&archive=yes
"CSL spokesman Jeff Patterson said the organization was asked to conduct a survey but declined to comment on who asked for it.
When questioned whether the survey was prompted by the recent announcement that Oklahoma City had secured an NBA franchise, Patterson said he had no additional information."

Summer/Fall? 2008 -- The Talons add two members of the NBA Thunder ownership group, Bill Cameron and David Box, as part owners "in the offseason."

July 2009 -- Bill Cameron and David Box are the driving force behind Tulsa's WNBA bid.

Another detailed article from John Klein today:

Maturity of WNBA lowers risk to invest
http://www.tulsaworld.com/sports/article.aspx?subjectid=203&articleid=20090726_203_B1_TULSAS898675&archive=yes

[RecycleMichael]

Good research, ruff.

I was surprised at how strong Mayor Taylor's comments were at the time. It would be hard for me to ever endorse spending any more of my tax dollars in OKC. It is tax funnel for Tulsans already.

I called in to the afternoon local sports radio show the day the announcement happened to argue with the hosts. They were so dissing the WNBA and finding every excuse to make their point (we already have college women's basketball and nobody goes) (the league is failing and desperate), (the women aren't real athletes), (it will just hurt the Talons and the Drillers), etc.

I said that it will be a cool thing to take my daughter to. I want her to know that women can care about sports and want to be athletes.   

[AVERAGE JOE]

Bait.  Er, uh... right.

One of the first posts I read in Tulsa Now's hatchet job thread against MLS.... blahblahblahblah

Totally ignoring your slanted selective memory for the umpteenth time (how many in you life have told you that you only hear what you want to hear?).

The only opposition I ever offered was for building a soccer stadium downtown. Period. I specifically said over and over, bring on MLS. I would still like a team here. Build a stadium on the west bank of the river. Build a stadium in a strategic location on the edge of the city limits near the burbs and surround it by youth fields. The report you reference clearly stated that was the preferred option for our market. I also PERSONALLY BELIEVE it would work best for this market -- building on the huge popularity of youth soccer here perpetually replenishing and growing the fan base. You preferred the downtown + housing plan. Heaven forbid, my OPINION differs from your OPINION, which is something you've never been able to tolerate in your petulant little world.

On top of that, I always felt a baseball stadium was a better fit for downtown than a soccer stadium. Why? MORE DATES. Minor league ball plays 70 home games a year. MLS plays FAR fewer. Also, a 20,000 seat soccer stadium would require more parking than a 6000-10,000 seat baseball stadium. That's it. The extent of my argument.

You never listened to what I actually said and chose to paint me as a slanted party perpetuating a "hachet job" on MLS. Nothing is or was further from the truth, but you have no interest in the truth. You're only interested in furthering your own agenda. Bottom line, I'd like to arrive at the same happy ending as you -- MLS in Tulsa. Your methods for promoting that agenda have alienated me and several others on this board. It's either agree with you lockstep or get painted as an opponent to the cause (even if you resort to half-truths or outright lies).

Any time I joke about soccer it's to piss you off. Period.

[Conan71]

That's the sound of a standing ovation you hear, Average Joe.

[AVERAGE JOE]

And let's get this thread back on topic. Apologies to everyone for the tangent.

I've never thought much about the WNBA. No disrespect intended to the league. I knew it was there and generally thought it was a good thing that women had professional hoop options. Of the team sports, it would seem to have the best chance of success as a women's professional league. No reason why the WNBA, LPGA and the various tennis associations couldn't be the flag bearers for women's sports in this country.

Could the WNBA work in Tulsa? Sure it could. For the same reason the LPGA was successful here -- the best competition, a quality product, approachable/personable/likable athletes, and price points that are a good value and fit for this market.

My opinion is that the key will be convincing people to experience the product first-hand. Watching it on TV won't cut it. I've watched women's college hoops on TV and it looks slow and awkward. In person, from the good seats, it's fast and skilled. Still not above the rim, but the athleticism is apparent, even at the college level. The WNBA would certainly be all that and more.

If we land a team, they'd have to do a tremendous amount of outreach to the community. The players would have to make tons of appearances, mingle with fans, etc. The LPGA does this really well with the pro-am they play the day before the tournament starts. Get 3-4 ol' boys out on the course with an LPGA player, and after she outdrives them and outplays them for 18 holes (while being personable and approachable) you have 3-4 more converts who brings their families out year after year and sing the praises of the tournament to their buddies. The WNBA will have to do the same here.

Succeed at that, and the team will be a success here.

[RecycleMichael]

This from ESPN...

http://sports.espn.go.com/wnba/columns/story?columnist=voepel_mechelle&id=4351786

Economy tests already frugal WNBA

By Mechelle Voepel

Does it absolutely, positively have to be there overnight? Well, no, come to think of it. The Los Angeles Sparks were used to sending out their season tickets that way, until someone asked why. "A guy in our office whose mother works in the postal service said, 'We should check to see how much it would cost to send them through there,'" Los Angeles Sparks co-owner Kathy Goodman said. "And it was like half the price. Every expense becomes a conversation. It's little stuff like that you hadn't really thought about before."

Before the economy crashed, that is, and made an already frugal sports league even more so. That's the thing about the WNBA -- it has no background of extravagance.

"The WNBA has never been a league filled with luxuries, even in the best of times," said Goodman, who bought the Sparks with co-owner Carla Christofferson in 2006. "We haven't gone from absurd spending patterns to bare bones. But I do think that there are interesting ways at looking at how you're spending money."

The WNBA's financial viability has been a continuous topic since the league formed in 1997 as an offshoot of the NBA. All eight inaugural teams were affiliated with NBA franchises, an ownership model that stayed intact until Connecticut became the first independent WNBA team. Now, six (Atlanta, Chicago, Connecticut, Los Angeles, Seattle and Washington) are financially independent from an NBA franchise.

The Sun, who began play in the 2003 season, were a relocated franchise that had been in Orlando. Connecticut has proved to be one of the league's more successful franchises and will host the WNBA All-Star Game on Saturday, the second time the contest has been held at the Mohegan Sun Arena. The Utah Starzz, one of the league's inaugural teams, relocated to San Antonio for the 2003 season and, like Connecticut, have found much more traction in their second home.

Dan Hughes, coach and general manager in San Antonio and the leader of the West squad in the All-Star Game, worked for two WNBA franchises that eventually became defunct: Charlotte and Cleveland. And he watched last year as what was the best of times for San Antonio ended up being the worst of times for nearby Houston. The Silver Stars made the WNBA finals in 2008, while the Houston Comets -- one of the inaugural franchises and winner of the first four WNBA titles -- disbanded a few months after the season ended.

Houston Rockets owner Leslie Alexander originally owned the Comets, but grew disinterested in running that franchise and sold it to Hilton Koch in October 2006. But Koch ran into financial issues and put the team up for sale in 2008. The WNBA briefly took over, but did not find a suitable buyer. "Having been in the league several years, I experienced playing at Houston where the crowd and the environment epitomized what a good WNBA situation was," Hughes said. "The fact that they weren't going to be there anymore ... I know things happen and time marches on, but that was hard."

All eight inaugural teams were affiliated with NBA franchises. Now, six of 13 are independently owned. Carla Christofferson, left, and Kathy Goodman are Sparks fans and co-owners. Hughes said during his season as head coach in Charlotte, in 1999, he felt the city presented a "vibrant opportunity" for the league. But the Sting went out of business after the 2006 season.

"When I'd go back there with Cleveland and San Antonio, I would notice less crowds and enthusiasm about the product," Hughes said of Charlotte. "I did see the signs, but I don't know why it happened. I wish I did." Meanwhile, Hughes saw what occurred with the Cleveland Rockers as a very different situation. "I was so busy with my team then, I didn't pick up on any signals. I never thought about us not being there," he said. "That wasn't so much about financial difficulties; that was an owner who didn't want to be in the business anymore."

Gordon Gund no longer wanted to own the Rockers, who disbanded in 2003. Two years later, he also sold controlling interest in the Cleveland Cavaliers. "There weren't a lot of fiscal signs that jumped out at you back then, and part of it was I wasn't looking for them," Hughes said of the Rockers' demise. "I didn't see subtle signs. But with the circumstances of an owner wanting get to out of the 'owning' business to a large extent, not just the WNBA, I don't see Cleveland as a direct comparison to anything that might be happening now."

So what is happening now? The WNBA, like most businesses in these difficult economic times, has pluses and minuses. On the plus side, both Phoenix and Los Angeles secured sponsorship deals for their jerseys, which WNBA president Donna Orender called, "consistent with the league's innovative mind-set." LifeLock, an identity-theft prevention company, now appears on the jersey-fronts of the Mercury, while Farmers Insurance does the same for the Sparks. Orender would like to see it happen for all the WNBA teams.

Goodman said the genesis of the Sparks' deal with Farmers was in their involvement in similar charitable projects in the greater Los Angeles community. "We kept running into each other, and we knew we had the same view of what we wanted to do in the city," Goodman said. "As to the fan response, our fans tend to communicate either when they love us or hate us.

"We had a lot of fans who said, 'This is so great -- to have a company that feels so strongly about supporting the league and women.' Then we had a small but vocal group that said, 'How can you sell the name? It's too commercial, this is an outrage, we should never cross that line.' "Given that we play in the 'Staples' Center, I'm not sure that I feel there is some line to cross. Corporate sponsorships are just a part of sports. Some didn't like that the Sparks logo wasn't more prominent on the jersey, but the name Sparks is everywhere in the building and the team has been the Sparks for 13 years. I feel like it was pretty well-established."

Another positive piece of economic news for the WNBA is the interest in bringing a team to Tulsa, Okla. This week, Orender met with a group of potential investors, led by Bill Cameron and David Box, about the possibility of having a team play in that city's BOK Center.

On the minus side, Indiana got a troubling signal from co-owner Mel Simon in March. He told the Indianapolis Star then that his commitment would end to the team if there wasn't significant improvement in attendance and sponsorship. The team has since secured a new sponsor in Kroger, and the Fever are leading the Eastern Conference with a 12-4 record. "We don't talk about it," said Indiana coach Lin Dunn of the Fever's economic status. "The players have got enough on their minds. Their job is to come in, work hard, get better. And if you do all of that, things will take care of themselves. The last thing they need is to feel the pressure: 'If we don't do this or that, we won't be back.' And we certainly don't want them to feel that way. Because that's not true."

Dunn is the coach of the East squad in the All-Star Game, a position she was awarded because the WNBA championship coach last year, Bill Laimbeer, resigned early in this season.

The Houston Comets ruled the WNBA from 1997 to 2000, winning four consecutive titles. But the franchise suspended operations prior to this season.
Laimbeer's exit was seen as yet another "bad sign" about the WNBA's future, although Laimbeer said economics did not impact his departure. The fact is, sky-is-falling rumors started just as soon as the league did more than a decade ago. Goodman now has a standard joke when asked about it.

"I always say that in 2027, the headline is going to read, 'WNBA celebrates 30th anniversary ... will it last?'" Goodman said, laughing. "Who knows? There might be an asteroid that hits the earth. If you had asked the NBA in 1978 about its future, I don't know what they would have said. "When a team folds, or a coach leaves, people will say, 'Oh, that's it for the WNBA!' At certain times, it can be incredibly demoralizing. You want to say, 'Would you please stop reporting my death? I'm not dead.' We're still struggling to get people to stop sidelining us and marginalizing us. People write and talk about how the WNBA must be suffering in these terrible economic times. Well, the NBA, NHL and Major League Baseball suffer, too. Everybody suffers in bad economic times."

Some of the moves made league-wide to counter the economic crisis include the cutting of the roster sizes from 13 to 11, and not printing media guides -- either for the league or the individual teams -- and instead making them available online.

In comparison to more established leagues, travel always has been economical. As Goodman said, extravagance hasn't been part of the WNBA. Teams fly commercial. And it wasn't until the latest collective bargaining agreement, reached in January 2008, that veteran players (those with at least five years' experience) earned the right to not have to share hotel rooms on road trips.

Indiana's Tamika Catchings, president of the WNBA Players Association, said "little things" like that were important issues, but by the same token everyone is aware that the league's growth demands concessions from everyone. For Hughes, being as economical as possible is second nature.

"I come from a background of being a high school coach, a Division III coach," he said. "I've always looked to minimize expenses with scouting and things like that. We don't do things just because the league says we could do it. There's always an eye on, 'How can we best do this in a professional way and still make sense financially?'"

Ultimately, Goodman says her philosophy is to find the silver lining in everything. Including the fact so many college graduates are struggling to find jobs that the Sparks' pool of volunteer interns is both large and exceedingly talented. "And they get a lot of experience in managing a sports franchise, which they'll be able to turn into a paying job somewhere," she said. "I just think you always look for the bright side. "And there's a part of me that really does get annoyed by the constant questions about longevity for the WNBA. Look, it's here now."

[USRufnex]

Totally ignoring your slanted selective memory for the umpteenth time (how many in you life have told you that you only hear what you want to hear?).

The only opposition I ever offered was for building a soccer stadium downtown. Period. I specifically said over and over, bring on MLS...... blah blah blah....

Any time I joke about soccer it's to piss you off. Period.

"Slanted selective memory?"  That could just as easily be your slanted memory we're talking about here. 

And if all the posts/threads in question were actually available to read, you wouldn't be able to make that claim.... (I have posts dating back to 2002 that can be looked up on BigSoccer.com)....... entire threads of responses were deleted with curious timing.... funny dat.

For the first few months until you and others got what they wanted, this forum was used by someone posting as "admin," for the purpose of attacking LaFortune's idea for a soccer stadium.  The forum was getting less traffic than it does now, and that thread had by far the most number of views and posts.  The thread in question was a sticky in the forum, and it was on the TulsaNow website front and center, which implied those were the official views of TulsaNow.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=5361.0

There are quotes from the post in question, but curiously, the original thread cannot be found, so I guess it just doesn't exist... 

When the administrators of this forum deleted most of the posts in question only a year after they were posted, I take offense.

From the original thread that has been deleted:
TulsaNow welcomes reasoned responses to any and all of the above points – especially from the City's Administration. The civic benefits certainly seem meager. "That the project smacks of cronyism does not inspire us either. We ask the Administration to think deeply before approaching voters to pay for a soccer stadium Downtown."

[USRufnex]

That's the sound of a standing ovation you hear, Average Joe.

...or the sound of one hand clapping.

[PonderInc]

A WNBA team will not negatively impact the Drillers.  It won't "rob" them of fans.  And it might actually help ALL Tulsa teams market downtown as a "sports district." (It would add to downtown's cachet, in general.)

Also, remember this.  Every two-bit town in America has a minor league baseball team.  The Wichita Wingnuts, the Springfield Cardinals, the Northwest Arkansas Naturals, the Arkansas Travellers, the Oklahoma City Redhawks, etc, etc.  Folks don't need to travel to see professional baseball.  They've got it at home.

But nobody else in the region would have professional women's basketball.  The closest WNBA team is in San Antonio, TX.

If Tulsa had a WNBA team, it would attract fans from throughout the region.  People would come from Oklahoma, Kansas, Missouri, Arkansas, and Texas to see games in Tulsa. 

Think of all the girls who play high school basketball in the region.  Now imagine their families coming to Tulsa for a game.  Or two, or three.  That alone would be a market of thousands of fans per game.  As long as it's marketed well, and the price is affordable, this thing will succeed.

[Laramie]

I realize there are concerns about the image the WNBA brings and the baggage of women being hug-up at the games.

My children see more heterosexual relationship so I'm not concerned about that other stuff.

Tulsa will do just fine in the WNBA.

[swake]

I realize there are concerns about the image the WNBA brings and the baggage of women being hug-up at the games.

My children see more heterosexual relationship so I'm not concerned about that other stuff.

Tulsa will do just fine in the WNBA.

This post is seriously in danger of Rabbits and pancakes

[sgrizzle]

I realize there are concerns about the image the WNBA brings and the baggage of women being hug-up at the games.

My children see more heterosexual relationship so I'm not concerned about that other stuff.

Tulsa will do just fine in the WNBA.

Here you go

[swake]

I realize there are concerns about the image the WNBA brings and the baggage of women being hug-up at the games.

My children see more heterosexual relationship so I'm not concerned about that other stuff.

Tulsa will do just fine in the WNBA.

After reading this post, I keep wondering, what makes a relationship "more" heterosexual?

I mean, I would have thought it an either/or kind of thing. Is there a percentage of the relationship that Laramie's kids see that is homosexual? How would that work exactly? Daddy lives with mommy but has a boyfriend too? If Daddy doesn't spend too much time this week with his boyfriend then it's safe for the family to go to the WNBA on Saturday night?

[Conan71]

After reading this post, I keep wondering, what makes a relationship "more" heterosexual?

I mean, I would have thought it an either/or kind of thing. Is there a percentage of the relationship that Laramie's kids see that is homosexual? How would that work exactly? Daddy lives with mommy but has a boyfriend too? If Daddy doesn't spend too much time this week with his boyfriend then it's safe for the family to go to the WNBA on Saturday night?

A swake classic for all times!

Thanks for the laugh!