OKC jealous of Tulsa, cries "not fair"

[swake]

Its hard enough to stay here and watch the impact the casinos have forced on this community. Its bad enough they have circled the city. Had they formed a nucleus on the West Bank, I would have fled by now. Tunica was a farming community, I'm told, till the casinos came and changed their way of life forever.

Lets see, has OKC had a large casino influence during the last decade? I hear a big one is open or about to open, so we'll see just how resilient their community is when faced with that huge sucking noise money makes when casinos open.

Sucking noise?

We've talked about this before, where do you think the money spent in those casinos goes? Let's start with the 1800 people that work at the Hard Rock.

Best Buy sucks money out of our economy a lot more than the Hard Rock does.

[waterboy]

So a 12 guage causes more damage than a 22. Now we're splitting hairs as to who sucks more money out of our community and where it goes? Well, Best Buy hires people too. And pays for electricity, water and local maintenance. Big deal. At least they hire without race and nationality preference.

Why argue this over and over? There was more diversity of culture, more restaurants, more local flavor, before the city was surrounded by casinos. It has not been a net positive imo for millions of dollars a day of discretionary income to flow through gambling establishments owned by other nations. It coursens our culture. Not to mention those who suffer from spending non discretionary income. And, is it mere coincidence that as they grew, our infrastructure has diminished?

Of course its here to stay. No use denying its impact though. No use denying that OKC was not surrounded by casinos as it prospered the last decade.

[brianh]

Anyone remember when the NBA franchise was "good" for Tulsa too?  Anyone else been to a Thunder game yet?  Not me.

For the first time, I saw someone with the OKC Thunder bumper sticker on their car yesterday. I don't know if they were actually from OKC though, but maybe it will just take a little time. I would rather see a football( or soccer for that matter) team here though since basketball is a terrible spectator sport.

[swake]

So a 12 guage causes more damage than a 22. Now we're splitting hairs as to who sucks more money out of our community and where it goes? Well, Best Buy hires people too. And pays for electricity, water and local maintenance. Big deal. At least they hire without race and nationality preference.

Why argue this over and over? There was more diversity of culture, more restaurants, more local flavor, before the city was surrounded by casinos. It has not been a net positive imo for millions of dollars a day of discretionary income to flow through gambling establishments owned by other nations. It coursens our culture. Not to mention those who suffer from spending non discretionary income. And, is it mere coincidence that as they grew, our infrastructure has diminished?

Of course its here to stay. No use denying its impact though. No use denying that OKC was not surrounded by casinos as it prospered the last decade.

Sorry, but you are completely off base here. You are wrong,

The Casinos for the most part just recirculate money in our economy. They employ far more people than Best Buy, they are local businesses where the profits remain local and the product they sell isn't manufactured in China.

When you buy a $100 piece of electronics at Best Buy the impact on the local economy is the paycheck of salesperson who you paid. Maybe, maybe two bucks of the purchase price stays local. The only real benefit to the local economy is sales tax. The rent on the building probably goes to an out of state company, the profits on the sale certainly do. The cost and profit from the manufacture of the item probably goes out of the country. That doesn't make Best Buy bad, but they aren't helping the local economy any.

You spend $100 at a casino and the vast majority of it is going to stay in the local economy. The portion of the cost of the service (gambling) that is worker cost is far higher and the profits remain local and are spent pretty directly into the local economy. There will be some debt service and other costs that are passed out of the local economy, but by far most of that $100 is staying here.

What's more, almost no one is going to travel to visit Best Buy, and a lot of the people spending money at the local casinos are from out of town. You mention the impact on Tunica. Those casinos were not built by sucking money out of the local economy of a farming community.

[cannon_fodder]

+1 Swake.  A locally owned casino circulates money in the economy.  It may probably retains extra money and may bring in outside money.  Retaining money by holding funds here that would otherwise be spent elsewhere and bringing in money by attracting tourists, keeping locals gambling here, or the occasional dollar from someone who happens to be in town. 

The dollars spent go to the tribe. Which is essentially a local entity.  Cash disbursements, education, new business ventures, and wages all come from that money.  Not nearly as productive for the local economy (in my unstudied opinion here) as manufacturing, but better than an out of state retailer.

custosnox:

Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting.  With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level.  I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions,  I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.

[DTowner]

Artist nails it - Tulsa is not yet ready for a V2025 Part II.  I think that is in large part because there hasn't been any development around the BOK and other downtown devleopment is somewhat spread out and not obvious unless you spend a lot of time downtown.  People in OKC supported MAPS II because they saw that MAPS I worked and bought into the idea that it would work again.  

The next couple of years are critical - more clear successes and the attraction of private development $ to downtown because of Tulsa's investment need to happen.  When it does, and I believe it will, I think a majority of Tulsans will want to keep moving forward (and PlaniTulsa's outcome demonstrates many realize that downtown must continue to be the focal point and a priorty).

As for Indian gaming - there isn't much the state or city can do about it.  It's here, it's successful and it's going to continue to grow for the foreseeable future.  Tulsa needs to focus on how to capitalize on it for its own advantage.

As for OKC, a tribe based in far NE Okla. was trying to put land into trust (located just north of I35/I44 interchange) for a large casino.  OKC and even the State were opposing it because of negative impact on Remington Park.  I believe Remington Park is now under contract to be sold to a tribe.

[DTowner]

+1 Swake.  A locally owned casino circulates money in the economy.  It may probably retains extra money and may bring in outside money.  Retaining money by holding funds here that would otherwise be spent elsewhere and bringing in money by attracting tourists, keeping locals gambling here, or the occasional dollar from someone who happens to be in town. 

The dollars spent go to the tribe. Which is essentially a local entity.  Cash disbursements, education, new business ventures, and wages all come from that money.  Not nearly as productive for the local economy (in my unstudied opinion here) as manufacturing, but better than an out of state retailer.

custosnox:

Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting.  With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level.  I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions,  I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.

I don't disagree, but in fairness you have to factor in the negatives:  most of the gaming money spent and all of the food/beverage/accommodation/concert sales at the casinos are non-taxable transactions for purposes of state/local sales taxes (a portion of class III games pay a small tax to the state).  While the casino's undoubtably draw in spenders from outside the Tulsa area, a lot of local Tulsa money is being spent in casinos that would otherwise be spent in other local establishments subject to state/local sales taxes.

I suspect that, on balance, the casinos are net economic contributors to the local econonmy/tax base, but at the micro level there have been some losers.

[Conan71]

Tunica was a filthy poverty pocket before the casinos.  Granted there are people from that area who should not be playing in the casinos, but I believe the casinos have provided more local jobs in that area than agriculture was prior to the casinos arriving.

Personally, I'm not much of a gambler at all and can't ignore the deleterious effects they've had on people who have a gambling addiction.  Like anything, I suppose they are okay in moderation.  There is apparently a demand for them.

[cannon_fodder]

I don't think casino's are magic bullets or all rosy goodness. People who shouldn't gamble, do.  Money that could go elsewhere goes to the Casino.  Just sayin' it isn't a huge sucking sound.

[swake]

I don't gamble much either. And while I feel bad for those that waste all their money gambling, these are people that absent a casino probably would have still found a way to waste all their money.

[Townsend]

It might help if OKC cleaned up their water supplies.

First they use the Oklahoma river to try to kill the swimmers and now Frontier City.

http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title

"Frontier City shut down due to E. coli in water"

Fresh water, not sewer water may bring in more business.  Just an opinion.

[Conan71]

It might help if OKC cleaned up their water supplies.

First they use the Oklahoma river to try to kill the swimmers and now Frontier City.

http://newsok.com/frontier-city-shut-down-due-to-water-woes/article/3389415?custom_click=lead_story_title

"Frontier City shut down due to E. coli in water"

Fresh water, not sewer water may bring in more business.  Just an opinion.

I have to admit it was a bit scary to see Canadian and Mexican rowers jumping into the Okla. River after winning rowing events last year.  Then again, our river may seem like a sanitary stream compared to what they've got back home.

[custosnox]

custosnox:

Those casino's have spent the majority of $1,000,000,000 in their construction and outfitting.  With that kind of money you can get a lot done, even at the Federal level.  I am not familiar with the intricacies and vaguely understand the restrictions,  I'm just saying it was probably worth looking into or at very least would have been a good idea.

As I said, I'm not familiar with the restrictions, but they are limited to where they can build.  They are planning on opening up some casinos in some strange places, and are doing it here do to that is where the trust land lays.

[waterboy]

The Casinos for the most part just recirculate money in our economy.........

You spend $100 at a casino and the vast majority of it is going to stay in the local economy.

The portion of the cost of the service (gambling) that is worker cost is far higher and the profits remain local and are spent pretty directly into the local economy. ......................but by far most of that $100 is staying here.

...................and a lot of the people spending money at the local casinos are from out of town.

You want it both ways.

They don't really make the pie bigger is the correct answer. Even when people come in from out of the city, that money is tribe money. May be recirculated, may not. Certainly makes some tribes wealthier but non tribals less wealthy. Show me some big new money development that our recirculated money bought. The hotel? The Hard Rock? Same guys, same money that is trying to bring in new money. Remains to be seen whether they do. At any rate their opening is probably at the expense of existing  hotels and restaurants. But what else? So rather than recirculating, its more plausible that its being redistributed.

Certainly its admirable that they provide employment but that employment is race/nationality based and could have been effected in other operations that would have "recirculated" the same money without discriminating in employment. Please, just show me anything more than a neglible net increase in total sales in our community that they have created.

I say that as someone who lived here as an adult before they expanded. Get a phone book from a decade ago and compare with today. Its gruesome. The story that says they tried to open in OKC and met resistance could mean OKC heard that sucking sound. Remington probably wasn't the only operation in fear. Their customers no doubt frequent Bricktown as well.

But whatever. Its all good. In all sincerity, the public wanted gambling and a lottery and they got it.

[TheArtist]

Whenever they put out health and poverty statistics etc., do they include Native Americans in them?  If so, wouldnt having wealthier tribes be a good thing for the over all stats and population of Oklahoma? Plus, though I havent kept specific track, I remember reading stories about the tribes now starting to invest in other industries completely unrelated to gambling (many of which dont just hire indans, and a lot of the "indians" they do hire are really no more indian than I am lol), build roads, expand and build new medical centers, educational projects, donate to different charities, etc. And I am sure as time goes on and they lessen up their investments into building the casinos, and will divert more of that money to other things. It seems to me that this money stays in the state and helps the state at least as much, if not a little more, than spending money at a national chain.