61st & Peoria

[Red Arrow]

Well said Nathan. Back in the Nixon years we used to hear that same rant, "he is on welfare but drives a late model car and has a new color TV" and of course the welfare babies rant. As though poor people should not have decent transportation and the same color TV running the same commercials advertising the same items the rest of us wanted. When you looked at the big picture, their housing costs were more modest, their travel limited and their  property taxes miniscule. They were the primary users of mass transit and their schools were sub par. It is about priorities but just because poor minorities have different priorities (family, church, fashion, glitz, whatever) doesn't mean they are all welfare queens.

I've known fairly well heeled people who were down on their luck but still kept appearances for quite some time to not only save face but to stay in the game. Once you're identified as in trouble financially, it becomes even harder to survive.

We want our poor to not just be plainly identifiable as poor, we want them to suffer. Its our Calvinist heritage i guess.

I have no problem with poor people having different priorities up until they require me to pay for a lifestyle they cannot afford.  Fill in your own details.  If there is no reward for success, we guarantee failure.

[Conan71]

Assuming things about other people ends up saying more about you than it does the people you're making assumptions about.

I'm sure it would make you feel better if they had messed up hair, dirty jeans, a torn t-shirt, and no cell phone. I've always found that dressing like smile is the best way to get a job, after all.

So says the man making ASSumptions about me.  Welcome back, Nate.  We missed you.

[TheArtist]

I have no problem with poor people having different priorities up until they require me to pay for a lifestyle they cannot afford.  Fill in your own details.  If there is no reward for success, we guarantee failure.

When rich people quit forcing poor people to have to have a car (pay for tags, gas, maintenance, a place for the car, insurance, etc.) in order to get to work, buy food, etc. because they want to spend money on things like widening I44 at a cost of over 100 million dollars a mile (I don't want that highway widened it has nothing to do with the lifestyle I want, nor do I want more roads built out into the suburbs for a lifestyle we can not afford, on my tax dollar, etc.) and making pedestrian friendly zoning illegal, etc. etc. well... lets talk.  And thats just one example, you know I can go on lol.   Not saying you don't have a point, but am trying to point out that there is another side to the coin and though there does't always seem to be a direct correlation between the two sides arguments... taken in their entirety, there may be more truth than can be found at first glances taken out of context.  

[Red Arrow]

When rich people quit forcing poor people to have to have a car (pay for tags, gas, maintenance, a place for the car, insurance, etc.) in order to get to work, buy food, etc.

I have said in the past that I would support better public transit.  That's not the same as buying someone a big color TV instead of a smaller one or an expensive pair of running shoes rather than a more economical choice.

because they want to spend money on things like widening I44 at a cost of over 100 million dollars a mile (I don't want that highway widened it has nothing to do with the lifestyle I want,

Almost everything you buy has spent some time on a truck so roadways do favorably affect your lifestyle, at least economically.

nor do I want more roads built out into the suburbs for a lifestyle we can not afford, on my tax dollar, etc.) and making pedestrian friendly zoning illegal, etc. etc. well... lets talk.

Most of the arterials have been here for a long time.  The upgrades are expensive.  I believe the roads in the housing additions are built by the developer then turned over to the city.  Our little corner is on approximately 1 acre lots.  Most of the newer stuff is 4 to 6 houses per acre, similar to Tulsa's early suburbs like mid-town.  If there had been a better options closer to downtown, many of those housing additions may not have happened.  Then things like the businesses along Memorial between the turnpike and 111th couldn't be supported.  We wouldn't need more than the 2 or 4 lane arterial roads. Memorial is US 64 in this area so it may have needed to be 4 laned but 101st?, 111th?, Sheridan, ...  I agree that pedestrian friendly zoning has its place in downtown areas.  (No Townsend, I still do not want sidewalks in my neighborhood.)   I voted for Vision 2025 because I believed it would be good for the region.  I have not been to the BOK center.  

And thats just one example, you know I can go on lol.

I know you can and so can I.  We have in the past.  I actually agree with some of your previous posts but do not feel they have the universal appeal you would like.





 

[sauerkraut]

Every city has it's own trouble area and trouble apartment complexes, In Columbus, Ohio it was BrierGreen aka "Uzi Avenue" back in the 1990's.

[nathanm]

Every city has it's own trouble area and trouble apartment complexes, In Columbus, Ohio it was BrierGreen aka "Uzi Avenue" back in the 1990's.

If you say so...

[custosnox]

I have said in the past that I would support better public transit.  That's not the same as buying someone a big color TV instead of a smaller one or an expensive pair of running shoes rather than a more economical choice.
Almost everything you buy has spent some time on a truck so roadways do favorably affect your lifestyle, at least economically.
Most of the arterials have been here for a long time.  The upgrades are expensive.  I believe the roads in the housing additions are built by the developer then turned over to the city.  Our little corner is on approximately 1 acre lots.  Most of the newer stuff is 4 to 6 houses per acre, similar to Tulsa's early suburbs like mid-town.  If there had been a better options closer to downtown, many of those housing additions may not have happened.  Then things like the businesses along Memorial between the turnpike and 111th couldn't be supported.  We wouldn't need more than the 2 or 4 lane arterial roads. Memorial is US 64 in this area so it may have needed to be 4 laned but 101st?, 111th?, Sheridan, ...  I agree that pedestrian friendly zoning has its place in downtown areas.  (No Townsend, I still do not want sidewalks in my neighborhood.)   I voted for Vision 2025 because I believed it would be good for the region.  I have not been to the BOK center.  
I know you can and so can I.  We have in the past.  I actually agree with some of your previous posts but do not feel they have the universal appeal you would like.





 

I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

[Red Arrow]

I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

If he can manage the little money he gets that well, good for him.  He probably won't be starving his kids to buy a TV and then complaining that he needs more money for food.

[guido911]

I've got a buddy (who is now, legally, disabled) that he and his family has been on food stamps for a while.  He and his wife are uneducated, so employment options are limited.  That being said, he has some nice things, but this doesn't come from frivolous spending.  In fact, he does without a lot, and is actually very frugal in his spending.  Because of his habits, however, he is able to find the absolute best deal he can to afford the extra things he does.  I've seen him get a 60" TV for $100, generally when they happen to have a little extra money for whatever reason.  Remember, just because someone manages to have a  little more than making ends meet this week doesn't mean that circumstances can't change next week, or that they paid top dollar for whatever nice things they have.

That friend is being responsible and smart.

[Gaspar]

How about a national minimum income, with government work to go with it if you can't find any and are not disabled to the point of being unable to work?

I think the Soviet Union tried that.

People should have the liberty not to work if they choose, and that choice should come with the spoils of sloth. That is the only way that people truly understand and appreciate the rewards of labor.

I believe that every individual is naturally entitled to do as he pleases with himself and the fruits of his labor, so far as it in no way interferes with any other men's rights. – Abraham Lincoln

[rdj]

Psst. Hey man. I got some primo Titleist. Half price. Barely used man. Really...

Hearsay dude. It never works in court or even when described in minute details. Its just he said, she said. I'm sure your trusted friends never embellish, exaggerate or fabricate, but guess what? Some do.

Your friends got intimidated by pre-teens?

This is an internet forum.  Isn't everything posted here, outside of cited articles, considered hearsay?

When is trespassing on someone's property, regardless of intent, not an offense?  There are people in this town, and probably on this forum, that would consider that grounds to put a bullet hole in you.  If someone has invested millions of dollars in their property don't you think they have a right to secure it? 

As far as the fence, when TCC sold a portion of the property the buyer agreed to install a wrought iron fence that wouldn't block the view from the development onto the course, but would deter trespassing.  An "iron" fence was installed, but was not true wrought iron so someone could bend the stiles and squeeze through.  The club recently proposed putting an 8 foot vinyl fence around the entire property to ensure no access to the course.  The developer did not appreciate the tenants losing the view so they split the cost of adding a black chain link to the backside of the metal fence to further deter trespassing.

Bottom line, this is another in a long line of promises subsidized housing developers make and don't follow through on.

[custosnox]

This is an internet forum.  Isn't everything posted here, outside of cited articles, considered hearsay?

When is trespassing on someone's property, regardless of intent, not an offense?  There are people in this town, and probably on this forum, that would consider that grounds to put a bullet hole in you.  If someone has invested millions of dollars in their property don't you think they have a right to secure it? 

As far as the fence, when TCC sold a portion of the property the buyer agreed to install a wrought iron fence that wouldn't block the view from the development onto the course, but would deter trespassing.  An "iron" fence was installed, but was not true wrought iron so someone could bend the stiles and squeeze through.  The club recently proposed putting an 8 foot vinyl fence around the entire property to ensure no access to the course.  The developer did not appreciate the tenants losing the view so they split the cost of adding a black chain link to the backside of the metal fence to further deter trespassing.

Bottom line, this is another in a long line of promises subsidized housing developers make and don't follow through on.

From my understanding of Oklahoma law, it's not trespassing unless you are personally told you are not allowed to be there.  So in other words, the no trespassing signs in this state are just to scare people.

[Townsend]

I wish the line read "Mayor Has Initiated Apartment Meetings".

Mayor Wants Apartment Meetings

http://kwgs.com/post/mayor-wants-apartment-meetings

Tulsa's rash of crime at low income housing is getting the attention of the city's mayor.

Dewey Bartlett wants regular meetings with apartment complex management to share information about common problems.

He also wants the federal government involved in the meetings, especially in Section 8 housing. The mayor says such meetings were held in the past and they were beneficial.

It was a week ago today that four women were shot and killed at the Fairmont Terrace Apartments near 61st and South Peoria. No suspect has been taken into custody.

[AquaMan]

Besides that RD, this is not a court of law. Hearsay is a legal concept. One that keeps jurors from using unfounded or second hand conversations as evidence. If you didn't hear it personally, it is hearsay and prone to exaggeration or error. Most lawyers know how much leeway they have in using it, but its also good advice in everyday life to discount what others say when you weren't a party to the original event.

When people talk on a forum its just opinion, sometimes backed up by good research and citations, usually not.

My gawd man, were you never a child? The project I commented on is so much better than most and totally different than one where people are beaten, robbed and murdered...and you're concerned about children trespassing?

[patric]

We have yet another task force to deal with crime.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=750&articleid=20130114_750_0_Thefir551805

This is not to be confused with the last task force on crime, which just proposed cosmetic changes.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18946.0