61st & Peoria

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't know the earlier history, but when I moved to Tulsa the first time in 1987 I looked at several apartments in that area.  Many were relatively new and had obviously been planned before the oil bust.  Most had move in deals that included the first 2 or 3 months rent free, etc.  Places like The Glens and Sand Dollar were pretty nice (even if chepaly built).  I remember the Kensington Mall aleady was pretty dead.  I ended up living in TU housing, but I had a good friend who lived at The Glens from 1987 through 1990.  The deterioration of that stretch of Peoria during that period was pretty dramatic (not that it was upscale before), complete with increasing petty theft and the sounds of gun shots.

I always assumed that many of these apartment owners turned to section 8 because of the apartment glut in the mid to late 1980s and the fact that this area both had too many apartments and already was developing a negative reputation for crime, etc. that made it a tough sell to full price buyers.  I assumed the city was also encouraging it as part of its efforts to "spread out" section 8 housing from concentrations in parts of north Tulsa.

I had friends move from Apache Manor to 61st and Peoria in late 70's - section 8 - to get away from that blight.  And then this became the new blight....  Amazing how drug related crime will change an area.  Gee, maybe we should be trying something different for drug laws...??

[DolfanBob]

I had friends move from Apache Manor to 61st and Peoria in late 70's - section 8 - to get away from that blight.  And then this became the new blight....  Amazing how drug related crime will change an area.  Gee, maybe we should be trying something different for drug laws...??

Naw. Let's concentrate on that fight against terrorism.

[Townsend]

131st and 145th E Av is Indian Springs Apartment complex in Broken Arrow. I really can't remember them having the type problems that 61st and Peoria does.
It has been Government housing for as long as I can remember.

I lived on the windmill course in the late 80's.  I don't remember violent crimes but I do remember a larger quantity of crime in the area.

[AquaMan]

DT, terrorism is where the big money is!

As a teenager I worked in construction on the units south of 61st close to Riverside (not Sand Dollar). That was in the late 60's. The builder was a crook who shorted his subs. They in kind provided less than stellar quality. Probably happened all over the area. I thought they had coined the phrase, "good enough for government work".  My sister lived in the townhomes near Fairmont in the 80's. They were in transition to trouble around that time.

There are other section 8 housing complexes that have less problems. Country Club over on Newton and the Tisdale (those colorful townhouses) are well kept and crime free. They don't tolerate infringement of rules.

I believe the decline is twofold.  One, the density of rental in that area is excessive and two, the lack of local management.

[rdj]

Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

[DTowner]

Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

A nuisance that has increased substantially the past year.

As I recall, that development was supposed to be a mix of incomes (subsidized and non-subsidized) and housing (town homes and single family homes).  It does not look like the single family component was ever completed.

[lalumna]

What was the 61st & Peoria area like before public housing began there? Who is/was responsible for that location?

There used to be a Putt-Putt golf course on the west side of Peoria near 61st. I remember going there with friends when I was a teenager (I'm thinking early 80's). We would hang out there without any adults accompanying us, so our parents must not have worried about the safety of the area too much at that point.

[AquaMan]

Those town homes on Country Club are relatively crime free.  The members of Tulsa Country Club would consider the crimes the residents commit against the club's property to be quite a nuisance.

You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

[Gaspar]

I like how everyone dances around the problem.

When people become dependent they lose all sense of pride, and they feel no individual responsibility for what takes place around them.  

Pride, cooperation, and a sense of individual responsibility is necessary for any community to be successful.

When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them.  When we promote them for pumping out kids, we breed failure like cattle.

Poverty is not supposed to be the easy way.  It's supposed to be the hard way.  It's supposed to be so terrifying and uncomfortable that men and women will not just labor to avoid it, but take notice of the choices that lead to it.

[Teatownclown]

You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

Last I recall there was a massive remodel at the apartments along side #5.

Gaspar: "When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them" and "take notice of the choices that lead to it (poverty)."

You got a crack in your head. This is the fundamental difference between those wanting to give a hand up to the impoverished and those that just perceive any type of community service as a handout.

[AquaMan]

I like how everyone dances around the problem.

When people become dependent they lose all sense of pride, and they feel no individual responsibility for what takes place around them.  

Pride, cooperation, and a sense of individual responsibility is necessary for any community to be successful.

When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them.  When we promote them for pumping out kids, we breed failure like cattle.

Poverty is not supposed to be the easy way.  It's supposed to be the hard way.  It's supposed to be so terrifying and uncomfortable that men and women will not just labor to avoid it, but take notice of the choices that lead to it.

Man, you are a one trick pony. A one note song. I'm surprised no one has taken you to task for turning a discussion of four murdered women into more T-party drivel. I hate to tell you this great poobah, but crime exists in wealthy neighborhoods as well. Even Jenks, Broken Arrow and Owasso have crazies who murder women. Rape is very popular in good southern neighborhoods too. Assault weapons seem to work well for white suburban middle class crazies as well as the projects.

On the other hand, thanks for giving the murderer(s) some sort of defense. "The gubmnt made me do it. They robbed me of my self respect and forced me into comfortable but shoddily built and maintained housing. They gave me money for pumping my seed into women so they could get more money while I moved on to the next heifer. They forced me to buy a gun and escape accountability for my actions."

You're like listening to an old man back in the Nixon years.

[rdj]

You know that the residents of Country Club committed those crimes? If so turn them in. The neighborhood surrounding Country Club looks much more likely but I don't live there nor am I a member of the club so I couldn't say. Just wondered why you think it was residents of that particular housing addition.

My understanding is there are multiple spots in the "iron" fence between the properties that are compromised and residents are accessing the course through those spots.  I've been told golfers have witnessed their golf balls stolen in mid-round from children running onto the course after the tee shot.  The children will then offer to sell the ball back.  Quite enterprising if you ask me.

Last I recall there was a massive remodel at the apartments along side #5.

Gaspar: "When we give people food and shelter with no expectation of anything in return, we destroy them" and "take notice of the choices that lead to it (poverty)."

You got a crack in your head. This is the fundamental difference between those wanting to give a hand up to the impoverished and those that just perceive any type of community service as a handout.

If I recall correctly the fourth hole runs alongside that property line.

[AquaMan]

I believe you are using second hand information to draw inferences. Kids from Country Club look just like kids from nearby Newton and Union. Kids go through fences, steal golf balls and turn over trash cans everywhere. I did it. My friends did it and we all roamed through our hoods playing fast and loose. Part of growing up. Mostly harmless.

But when a subsidized housing addition is nearby its criminal behavior?

I would have thought the businessmen playing golf would have identified with the Wall Street type business acumen they showed.

[Gaspar]

Man, you are a one trick pony. A one note song. I'm surprised no one has taken you to task for turning a discussion of four murdered women into more T-party drivel. I hate to tell you this great poobah, but crime exists in wealthy neighborhoods as well. Even Jenks, Broken Arrow and Owasso have crazies who murder women. Rape is very popular in good southern neighborhoods too. Assault weapons seem to work well for white suburban middle class crazies as well as the projects.

On the other hand, thanks for giving the murderer(s) some sort of defense. "The gubmnt made me do it. They robbed me of my self respect and forced me into comfortable but shoddily built and maintained housing. They gave me money for pumping my seed into women so they could get more money while I moved on to the next heifer. They forced me to buy a gun and escape accountability for my actions."

You're like listening to an old man back in the Nixon years.

It's not their fault.  It's ours.  We built this culture. We continue to put people here.

[AquaMan]

It's not their fault.  It's ours.  We built this culture. We continue to put people here.

Just ignore anything that doesn't fit the construct eh? I seldom open your's or G's links and I find your effort to politicize these murders pretty disgusting.