61st & Peoria

[shadows]

We have yet another task force to deal with crime.
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=750&articleid=20130114_750_0_Thefir551805

This is not to be confused with the last task force on crime, which just proposed cosmetic changes.
http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/index.php?topic=18946.0

_____________________________________________________________________________Well, well, well, Tulsa was once a small town where residents left their back doors open so the ice man could put the daily hunk ice in the ice box and he wouldn’t awaken you. The ice plant on Denver also furnished the electricity source for the city and when one bought a new fangled electric ice box the electric bill increased from $1.25 to $2.25 per month.  Cattle grazed at Admiral and Lewis in the pasture. The burb towns surrounded Tulsa where lots were given away for the price of the abstract.

People wanted a big city so they promoted and promoted to make the city into a big city but now are looking for what to do with the Midas Touch when wealth becomes a vacuum drawing into it the ever expanding crime. It even contaminates those chosen by the community that is hired to protect the citizens.

The building of expressways in large cities increases access which increases availability to rapid escapes whereas violence breeds violence.       

[DTowner]

Besides that RD, this is not a court of law. Hearsay is a legal concept. One that keeps jurors from using unfounded or second hand conversations as evidence. If you didn't hear it personally, it is hearsay and prone to exaggeration or error. Most lawyers know how much leeway they have in using it, but its also good advice in everyday life to discount what others say when you weren't a party to the original event.

When people talk on a forum its just opinion, sometimes backed up by good research and citations, usually not.

My gawd man, were you never a child? The project I commented on is so much better than most and totally different than one where people are beaten, robbed and murdered...and you're concerned about children trespassing?

Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

[AquaMan]

Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

I just can't relate to you guys. Will Rogers once said, "Don't believe anything you read in the newspaper and only half of what you see." He did not mean that everything you read is false. He only was pointing out that you should review what you read with caution and apply your own experience and judgment to what you read and see. I wonder if Will Rogers ever stayed very long in Tulsa.

[AquaMan]

Aqua - I'm confused by your point because you were the one calling out posters for relying on "hearsay" and not following the rules of evidence.  This board would be pretty boring if we were limited to posting only our own first hand account of things.

While the development east of Tulsa Country Club is an improvement over the old public housing in the area, this development has not lived up to the promises made at the time and, while minor compared to the crime problems around 61st & Peoria, the trends are not headed in the right direction.  While I supsect we all engaged in a little mischief in our youth, excusing away vandalism and petty theft (what's happening goes well beyond child trespassing) is usually a sure way to get a lot more of a lot worse types of crime (hence my reference to James Q. Wilson's "Broken Windows").

I just drove through there today around noon. Right past the area you've described. There are single family housing units in that development btw. My friend with kids, a wife and two incomes lives there. He feels strongly about curbing the behaviors you mentioned and most of the residents there do also. They like that "takes a village" thing. If the golfers had spoken to any of them I believe they would have responded. They love it there.

But I noticed no vandalism, trash, graffiti, transients, no cars on the streets, no kids running loose, no hoopties with flats, or even damaged fencing. Those are all things you see near other projects. I did see some dirt piled up and old cyclone fencing perhaps where the club replaced it with that steel tubing fencing.

One wonders, are there any subsidized housing projects that have met your approval? Should they be discontinued?

[sauerkraut]

Some people are wondering if that whole area should just be bulldozed, many of the apartments there are very old and run down anyhow. Bulldoze and rebuild that area to new up-scale apartments. A while ago there was  talk of bulldozing large parts of Detroit, Michigan  to clear up the vacant homes and buildings where drug dealers hang out. That may work in the troubling Peoria/61st street area too. Of course that will only result of the dis-placement and re-location of the criminals to another neighborhood, another apartment complex.

[Gaspar]

Some people are wondering if that whole area should just be bulldozed, many of the apartments there are very old and run down anyhow. Bulldoze and rebuild that area to new up-scale apartments. A while ago there was  talk of bulldozing large parts of Detroit, Michigan  to clear up the vacant homes and buildings where drug dealers hang out. That may work in the troubling Peoria/61st street area too. Of course that will only result of the dis-placement and re-location of the criminals to another neighborhood, another apartment complex.

Back in the 90s when I made frequent ambulance calls there, the apartments were in horrible shape, with holes in the walls, roaches, and carpets that had become something in-between soil and burlap. We hated going there for fear of touching something.  It was definitely a double nitrile glove environment.  Lots of wall punchers too!

I'm sure they have probably been remodeled since then, but they were almost to the point of structural decay.

[sauerkraut]

Back in the 90s when I made frequent ambulance calls there, the apartments were in horrible shape, with holes in the walls, roaches, and carpets that had become something in-between soil and burlap. We hated going there for fear of touching something.  It was definitely a double nitrile glove environment.  Lots of wall punchers too!

I'm sure they have probably been remodeled since then, but they were almost to the point of structural decay.

Indeed, some were built around 1965 no doubt they have termite damage and water damage in many of the buildings. Bulldozing it all may be the best way to go. The buildings are likely unfit to live in and full of disease as it is...

[shadows]

The apartments in the 61st and Peoria area were buildings to provide emergency homes tied with integration and built under architect supervision, subsidized by the ever generalized spending of the federal government.  Number one materials were used throughout the buildings and completion was by inspections. This, one is aware of when they are subcontractors in the construction of the buildings.

They were built in many locations throughout the city and the nation.  There may be cosmetic damages to parts, created by failure to maintain the structures due to the damages of the interiors because of the government regulations in this ever rising inflation.

We are comparing interest rates at 7% to the present rate of 2.9%.  On the 27 million dollar loan that doesn't give one much for the maintenance on apartments that are qualified for title 8 occupies. 

Bulldozing buildings should be scrutinized unlike the city hall escapade that is costing the working poor multimillions of dollars.  If one of those posting is going to run for county assessors you sure have my vote.             

[heironymouspasparagus]

The apartments in the 61st and Peoria area were buildings to provide emergency homes tied with integration and built under architect supervision, subsidized by the ever generalized spending of the federal government.  Number one materials were used throughout the buildings and completion was by inspections. This, one is aware of when they are subcontractors in the construction of the buildings.

They were built in many locations throughout the city and the nation.  There may be cosmetic damages to parts, created by failure to maintain the structures due to the damages of the interiors because of the government regulations in this ever rising inflation.

We are comparing interest rates at 7% to the present rate of 2.9%.  On the 27 million dollar loan that doesn't give one much for the maintenance on apartments that are qualified for title 8 occupies. 

Bulldozing buildings should be scrutinized unlike the city hall escapade that is costing the working poor multimillions of dollars.  If one of those posting is going to run for county assessors you sure have my vote.             

They were built to spread the blight that was Apache Manor to other areas of the city, in part to relieve the intensity of the police presence in one concentrated area.  Seemed like a good idea at the time....

"Number 1" materials were NEVER used in the construction of those buildings.  They were built to "low bid" and ALL that implies.  And developers and builders were just as corrupt and cut just as many corners - if not more - than today.  Right, TeaTownClown??

Cosmetic damage?  None of that sentence means anything.... want to try again??  As for inflation - since you are so old, surely you remember deflation, don't you??   Didn't you ever listen to the members of your family when you were younger about the deflation??  If you had, you would be down on your knees thanking God for the small average annual inflation we have had for the last 70 years!  It has been a boon to us.  We have been vastly more stable than at any comparable time frame in the history of our country.  We have enjoyed the benefits of that relative stability more than any previous group of people in those time frames in the history of our country.  We have literally lived in a true "golden age" and have become SO spoiled due to our lack of experience with any other set of conditions that it is truly breathtaking - as in reduced ability to breath - how clueless we are.  And you, who claims to have had so many decades of "experience", have no sense of history.

As for $27 million dollar loans...  ??   If someone cannot make a business case to do the necessary maintenance they should never have gotten a loan to do that business activity (not just apartments, but any business).  And the lender should never have made the loan.  Section 8 has nothing to do with a business analysis.  Interest rates are irrelevant.  7% or 3% - doesn't matter to the action of making the case...you either can or can't at 7% in the same fashion as you can or can't at 3%.


Hint to post a legible note;  open a text editor, type what you think you want to say.  Then come back 5 minutes later and reread it.  See if the thoughts make sense.  See if there is a logical flow, with proper word position within the sentence - in other words, good grammar and sentence structure.  Then save it in a file while you go find someone else to proof read it for you.  Ensure clarity.  I suspect you have some thoughts that may make sense, but they just don't make it this far.

And then, if you can accomplish none of those follow on activities, delete the file without posting.

[AquaMan]

"The primary determinants of any war are predominantly economic in nature". A quote I remember from a History of Economics course in college. I find that it applies to many spheres of life including the effort here in the mid 60's to make subsidized housing work. Some had good intentions, some had economic intentions and some had confused intentions.

As I noted before, I worked on some of those projects in the late sixties. I assure you they were not the best and the brightest builders using the best materials and designs available on the most desirable property at the time. They were apartment builders, period.

[Red Arrow]

"The primary determinants of any war are predominantly economic in nature".

You need to put religion up near the top too.

[shadows]

With the assertion of the poster that the repeal of price control began "the golden age", allowing industrial America to take their industries to foreign countries in order to place the burden of government on the backs of the working poor, telling the people the repeal would create jobs, which it did all over the world whereas; we are going to the world bank now to raise our credit rating.

But all is not lost loss.  The Mayor is looking at licensing low cost apartments for inspection fee's.  Of course they are subject to inspections.  Trouble is there seems to be no one to prod the inspectors in doing their job.

The question is if the low rent apartments are in the way of the future development of the river jewel?         

[Townsend]

TW FB post:

A state agency approved tax-exempt financing Wednesday as part of a $43 million deal by investors to buy the Fairmont Terrace apartment complex in Tulsa and "make it a safe place for people to live."

[Hoss]

TW FB post:

I just don't think throwing money at this is going to do much good.

[Townsend]

I just don't think throwing money at this is going to do much good.

Not unless it suddenly becomes an office park or a bird sanctuary.

edited to add a bit more to the story:

A Tulsa Leader Applauds a Deal to Allow Tax Credits to Purchase Fairmont Terrace

http://kwgs.com/post/tulsa-leader-applauds-deal-allow-tax-credits-purchase-fairmont-terrace

A financing deal to purchase and improve a troubled Tulsa apartment complex moves forward. The Oklahoma Housing Finance Agency okays tax exempt financing for new investors to buy Fairmont Terrace, the site of the recent murders of four women. Part of the deal includes security improvements at the federally subsidized complex. Tulsa City Council Chair David Patrick applauds the deal and hopes it will make a difference.

Now that tax exempt financing has been okayed, closing is expected soon and upgrades to the property can then begin.

I'm asking, because I have no idea and I tend to be cynical.  Will there be anyone watching over the "upgrades"?