Rod Stewart Canceled

[custosnox]

The superiority complex I was referring to was FOTD's reference to the rest of us "Smallvilles" who listen to the local snooze.

Ah, I seriously need to find a way to sleep better.  Seems my mind does not opperate well when I don't get enough.  And I don't watch local or national news, too damn depressing.

[FOTD]

Says the idiot who gets most of his news from Huffington and the bottom of a bong.....

[Rico]

If he pulled out due to low ticket sales, it would have to be an ego issue.  Artists are paid by the promoter to perform. Regardless of ticket sales, the artist makes the same amount of money off of the show. 

There is one fact that many seem to be overlooking...

A few years back ,Stewart, had a bought with a cancer in the region of the throat. He was told ,at that time, he would more than likely never again have full command of his voice. Whiskey tenor, raspy, whatever you wish to call it. He recovered from the cancer.
Just a thought..
that might make you quite a bit more cautious about things like performing with a sore throat.

If he decides to return ,possibly, it will be when the content of the first page of this thread reads like something more than the diary of dung tossing baboons.

 

[custosnox]

There is one fact that many seem to be overlooking...

A few years back ,Stewart, had a bought with a cancer in the region of the throat. He was told ,at that time, he would more than likely never again have full command of his voice. Whiskey tenor, raspy, whatever you wish to call it. He recovered from the cancer.
Just a thought..
that might make you quite a bit more cautious about things like performing with a sore throat.

If he decides to return ,possibly, it will be when the content of the first page of this thread reads like something more than the diary of dung tossing baboons.

 

That is why I said IF he pulled out for ticket sales.  All I know is that the unofficial official reason is that he had lost his voice, and that people are talking about the low ticket sales.

[Rico]

^^^^^^^^^^^^

Your responses were intelligent... Others were ??

[cannon_fodder]

FOTD:

I have done a some contract work for concert promoters.  A typical contract says "Artist will be paid $XXX,XXX for their performance with 50% upfront and 50% upon the conclusion of the performance."  Generally the promoter puts forth the money for the artist and covers the cost of the venue etc.    Rarely will a portion of the house take be included in the compensation contract for the artist.

At least, that is in my dealing with the performance contracts of Fish Bone, Reba McIntyre, Nelly, P-Funk, Incubus, Fuel, and a few others that aren't bouncing off my head.  The bands I have dealt with made from $35,000 to $350,000 per performance.  Sometimes the contract included a payout for the "opening act" and sometimes a stipend was granted and they secured their own opener.   At one point I had a list of performers and how much each charged to do a show, with general specifications and each with some criteria . You can shop for an artist to hop into a venue like looking through the Sears catalog (actually getting it booked and the details worked out - not so much.  Some have venue criteria, higher cost for larger venues, merchandising requirements, stage items, promotion items, part of a tour or piece meal, college date or general, etc. etc. etc.).

Alternatively you can do guarantees.  But this is more for smaller venues  or unique situations.  Ie. I'll give you a $1000 guarantee and 20% of the gate over $5,000.  But that is somewhat rare for concerts of any size in my very limited experience.

So, FOTD, I readily admit to being no expert on the subject.  But from what I do know it wouldn't make sense for the artist to back out based on ticket sales.  Odds are he will get paid just the same while the promoter took a bath.

And if you think about it, that arrangement makes sense.  The artist nor his people probably know the local market.  Is Prince popular in Tulsa?  He probably doesn't have a clue or really care and it would be a huge tie investment for this agent or label to figure it out.  But a promoter that does work in a local market can easily ascertain and keep tabs on trends, what shows sell well, what radio stations play, what the local demographics are like, etc.

All these costs are pretty well set for the promotor.  The BOK center costs $15,000 to rent for an event.  Setup and takedown probably another $10-15,000.  Promotion and ticketing another $10,000 easy (BOK fees cover this?).  Then the cost of the artist (Stewart could be a million dollar man, north of $500,000 anyway).  Divide by an estimated minimum number of tickets (say 7,500 or half full at the BOK) and you have a rough starting point to begin figuring ticket prices.  The promoter is taking the risk, not the artist.

[edit] My acquaintance that books concerts for colleges said this website had a fairly accurate list of the per-show cost of artists.  He also said they often reduce rates for college shows, or at least pretend to:
http://prettypolly.com/musicframeset.html [/edit]

[FOTD]

FOTD:

I have done a some contract work for concert promoters.  A typical contract says "Artist will be paid $XXX,XXX for their performance with 50% upfront and 50% upon the conclusion of the performance."  Generally the promoter puts forth the money for the artist and covers the cost of the venue etc.    Rarely will a portion of the house take be included in the compensation contract for the artist.

At least, that is in my dealing with the performance contracts of Fish Bone, Reba McIntyre, Nelly, P-Funk, Incubus, Fuel, and a few others that aren't bouncing off my head.  The bands I have dealt with made from $35,000 to $350,000 per performance.  Sometimes the contract included a payout for the "opening act" and sometimes a stipend was granted and they secured their own opener.   At one point I had a list of performers and how much each charged to do a show, with general specifications and each with some criteria . You can shop for an artist to hop into a venue like looking through the Sears catalog (actually getting it booked and the details worked out - not so much.  Some have venue criteria, higher cost for larger venues, merchandising requirements, stage items, promotion items, part of a tour or piece meal, college date or general, etc. etc. etc.).

Alternatively you can do guarantees.  But this is more for smaller venues  or unique situations.  Ie. I'll give you a $1000 guarantee and 20% of the gate over $5,000.  But that is somewhat rare for concerts of any size in my very limited experience.

So, FOTD, I readily admit to being no expert on the subject.  But from what I do know it wouldn't make sense for the artist to back out based on ticket sales.  Odds are he will get paid just the same while the promoter took a bath.

And if you think about it, that arrangement makes sense.  The artist nor his people probably know the local market.  Is Prince popular in Tulsa?  He probably doesn't have a clue or really care and it would be a huge tie investment for this agent or label to figure it out.  But a promoter that does work in a local market can easily ascertain and keep tabs on trends, what shows sell well, what radio stations play, what the local demographics are like, etc.

All these costs are pretty well set for the promotor.  The BOK center costs $15,000 to rent for an event.  Setup and takedown probably another $10-15,000.  Promotion and ticketing another $10,000 easy (BOK fees cover this?).  Then the cost of the artist (Stewart could be a million dollar man, north of $500,000 anyway).  Divide by an estimated minimum number of tickets (say 7,500 or half full at the BOK) and you have a rough starting point to begin figuring ticket prices.  The promoter is taking the risk, not the artist.

[edit] My acquaintance that books concerts for colleges said this website had a fairly accurate list of the per-show cost of artists.  He also said they often reduce rates for college shows, or at least pretend to:
http://prettypolly.com/musicframeset.html [/edit]

Sheesh Groovie Crusher, who put you up to that? Look, good info tells me all the tour was over after Tulsa. There was some dis information circulating that there were other shows canceled as well. Not so. Vendors were paid 50 cents or less on their obligations. It's called limiting your loss. And in the context of an entire tour, it's not much. But it is a savings to the corporate Shepard. Sorry you disagree but the show was canceled because of poor ticket sales. And an "act of gawd" clause was exercised. That's just a damn good guess based on 40 years of witnessing such tactics.

Too many shows chasing too few dollars. Stood and watched the sea of cars leave through 2nd street after Def Leopard/Poison/CheapTrick Saturday and noticed how few concert goers patronized the area afterwards. Lots of people out on the streets. It's good to see.

[cannon_fodder]

Sheesh Groovie Crusher, who put you up to that? Look, good info tells me all the tour was over after Tulsa. There was some dis information circulating that there were other shows canceled as well. Not so.

The remaining tour was canceled:
http://www.livedaily.com/news/19934.html

Tulsa, Virginia, and Pennsylvania.  Or were those last two shows just setup to then pretend to cancel?  Really, I don't understand your argument.  If you are arguing that there were no other shows canceled, you are verifiable wrong.

The promoter in Tulsa is so strong they set up fake concert dates and even planted fake stories in the national media and it he respective local media markets:
http://www.radaronline.com/exclusives/2009/08/exclusive-throat-infection-forces-rod-stewart-cancel-concerts

FOTD wrote
Bottom line....how much money do you think the promoter and the artist lose if the show goes on?
. . .
NOT regardless of sales. It costs tons to run a concert tour. MUST READ CONTRACT.
. . .
If the promoter loses money, so does the artist. If the artist is owned by the promoter, the artist must obey.
. . .

You were arguing that the artists profits were tied to that of the promoter.  I simply explain that in my experience and as an industry standard that isn't the case.   Generally speaking, the artist will make money even if the promoter loses his shirt on the deal.

So if Rod Stewart canceled in Tulsa because of poor ticket sales, then he suffered the same fate in Pennsylvania and Virginia.  Which would make it hard to argue that it is an inherent problem with the Tulsa market.  More likely a broader issue with the product, the pricing therein, or the markets ability to bear them given circumstances.    (unless you are still arguing that there really was not two concerts after Tulsa that were canceled... then your just crazy). Given that he canceled the last three shows it would seem to support the illness contention.

I have no horse in this race.  Just following the logic your argument doesn't hold up in this instance.  It makes sense superficially, but the evidence hasn't flushed it out. 

[cannon_fodder]

For fun, here is another site you can look up the estimated cost to hire an entertainer (again on a piece meal basis/college):

http://www.concertideas.com/college_concert_search.php

Still, good estimates apparently.

[FOTD]

Arguing for argument sake. Great.

Rod Stewart is a loser. Guess his corporate Mastas pulled the remainder of the stops using his health. Barf.

[cannon_fodder]

Sorry, but I call BS when I have to.  You were wrong on two counts.  He DID cancel the remainder of his dates and it is unlikely that the Artists money is tied to the profits of the promoter.  Both your major premises attesting to prove that Tulsa is tapped for entertainment money are false. Hence, your argument is without merit.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Sooner or later you will be able to shout "I told you so" when a concert is canceled for poor ticket sales.  Didn't you banish yourself from this website not too long ago anyway?

[FOTD]

Sorry, but I call BS when I have to.  You were wrong on two counts.  He DID cancel the remainder of his dates and it is unlikely that the Artists money is tied to the profits of the promoter.  Both your major premises attesting to prove that Tulsa is tapped for entertainment money are false. Hence, your argument is without merit.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Sooner or later you will be able to shout "I told you so" when a concert is canceled for poor ticket sales.  Didn't you banish yourself from this website not too long ago anyway?

Nothing was proved wrong that FOTD posted. He insured that any remaining shows were in doubt. FOTD will stand by the smokescreen story of "illness" as an act of Gawd being substituted for stopping a corporate loss.
Rod Stewart is owned. He's a friiggen commodity...he sux.

You wish FOTD would disappear from your screen....

[Conan71]

I gotta say, I think it was a mistake for Rod to book the same week as Sir Paul.  Given a choice of one or the other, which many people were faced with, who would they pick?  My moles tell me Def Lepard was packed though.  Some of the same people went to both shows, but couldn't do all three.  I'd call it a combination of lack of sufficient interest in the performer and stiff competition from more compelling acts that week.

Rod would have done well to trundle his ego down to the Brady, Maybee Center, S'pank, or OKC.

I'm not anywhere close to claiming that FOTD has superior knowledge of the inner-workings of entertainment contracts than Cannon but I don't think he's far off on the economic reasons behind the sudden illness.

FWIW- From my own experience, smaller acts generally do work with a guarantee or guarantee plus part of the door, I know that much but have no clue how the big boys do it.

[Townsend]

Does anyone really crave "Forever Young" or want to rock out to "Hotlegs"?

[swake]

Nothing was proved wrong that FOTD posted. He insured that any remaining shows were in doubt. FOTD will stand by the smokescreen story of "illness" as an act of Gawd being substituted for stopping a corporate loss.
Rod Stewart is owned. He's a friiggen commodity...he sux.

You wish FOTD would disappear from your screen....

Let me see if I can get this straight.

Rod Stewart sucks because he let his "corporate masters" (tour sponsor?) cancel the last two stops on his tour in order to hide the fact that he wasn't sick and canceled his Tulsa stop due to there not being enough ticket buyers in Tulsa because of a bigger concert a couple of days earlier.

FOTDs bong is filled with the really good stuff lately