Three councilors and a bunch of firemen

[jamesrage]

To me, it's a very simple issue.

If they say, "HI, I'm [name], and I'd like to encourage you to vote for [candidate] because s/he supports public safety.", it's fine.

But, if they say, "HI, I'm from the fire deptment and we want you to vote for [candidate]...".

Showing up in a union shirt represents themselves as fire department, just as if they had pulled up front in a fire truck.

They agreed not to campaign and are doing it.
They need to stop, change their methodology, or be fired.

I agree with that and I believe that is what the law/charter also means.

[Wilbur]

I agree with that and I believe that is what the law/charter also means.

Wrong.  Wrong!  WRONG!!

A union in no way represents the fire department.  It represents the union and its members.  An organization paid for by a group of citizens who just happen to be firefighters.  While that just happens to also mean they're government employees doesn't change the fact the City has no say in their organization or membership.  The City does not pay one red cent for this organization to exist, thus they have no say in their activities.

[pmcalk]

The firefighter's union, plain and simply, is just a PAC.  I'm not crazy about any PACs, but I just don't understand why we single out the firefighters.  There is a Homebuilders PAC, a Realtors PAC, and apparently even a certain bank in Tulsa has a PAC.  Each tries to pool funds, and influence elections, sometimes  effectively.  If people who buy & sell homes can influence elections, why can't people who risk their lives for our safety?  If you have the homebuilders PAC trying to persuade councilors not to adopt the latest fire safety regulations, wouldn't you want the firefighters PAC/Union fighting to impose them (at least to provide a balance)? 

As for firefighters living outside the city limits, well at least they WORK here.  Recent reporting shows that people who live outside of the state have donated money to some of the campaigns.  Not sure where the Bok PAC gets all of its money, but I bet some of it comes from outside the state.  Why should we allow that, but not allow those whose jobs and safety depend on city council decisions? 

If you think the unions have too much power, don't support their candidates.  They only have power in so much as voters choose to follow their endorsements.  If someone threatens you to vote one way or another, contact the police.  It is a felony to intimidate a voter.  I would also contact the candidate.  I can't imagine that any candidate would want a person intimidating potential voters.

[Limabean]

Everyone is talking about what is fair and reasonable. Is it fair and reasonable that the firemen are campaigning as individuals on their off-hours? Is it reasonable that firemen who do not live in Tulsa are involved in Tulsa campaigns?

Why not take it a step further.

Is it reasonable or fair that Westcott, Martinson and Eagleton berated the city attorney, Diedre Dexter at this week's Public Works meeting to the point where Ms. Dexter, an ex-judge, was having her abilties challenged on television?

Is it reasonable that when Gomez saw a fireman in a Chris Trail shirt at the TyPros event Gomez told him he would be sorry for wearing that shirt?

Is it fair or reasonable that Westcott, Martinson and Eagleton are trying the firemen in the public media and  using the offices of the city council to hurl slanderous comments where the firemen have no way of defending themselves?

Is it reasonable that at last night's LWV forum, Gomez told a group of Barnes supporters that their handouts indicating the firemen supported Maria Barnes were illegal but when he was asked in public at the forum if he believed the firemen should be campaigning he passed and refused to answer?

Wake up, Tulsa! Be very careful who you consider to be fair, reasonable and representing your best interests.
The fire fighters campaigned for Bill LaFortune and there was no problem. I think we are witnessing a classic case of Gomez, Westcott, Martinson and Eagleton acting like a bunch of bullies and trying to control the city. Grow up, babies. Real men don't act this way. 

[Wrinkle]

The firefighter's union, plain and simply, is just a PAC.  I'm not crazy about any PACs, but I just don't understand why we single out the firefighters.  There is a Homebuilders PAC, a Realtors PAC, and apparently even a certain bank in Tulsa has a PAC.  Each tries to pool funds, and influence elections, sometimes  effectively.  If people who buy & sell homes can influence elections, why can't people who risk their lives for our safety?  If you have the homebuilders PAC trying to persuade councilors not to adopt the latest fire safety regulations, wouldn't you want the firefighters PAC/Union fighting to impose them (at least to provide a balance)? 

As for firefighters living outside the city limits, well at least they WORK here.  Recent reporting shows that people who live outside of the state have donated money to some of the campaigns.  Not sure where the Bok PAC gets all of its money, but I bet some of it comes from outside the state.  Why should we allow that, but not allow those whose jobs and safety depend on city council decisions? 

If you think the unions have too much power, don't support their candidates.  They only have power in so much as voters choose to follow their endorsements.  If someone threatens you to vote one way or another, contact the police.  It is a felony to intimidate a voter.  I would also contact the candidate.  I can't imagine that any candidate would want a person intimidating potential voters.

None of those other PAC's signed a contract and took a public pledge saying they wouldn't.

No one's trying to stop individuals from expressing their opinion. They agreed to keep it at that. But, they've exceeded that by organizing via PAC, union or Fire Dept. Doesn't matter.

Besides, to the public, a person showing up in a union shirt is generally indistinguishable from a fire dept employee. That's representation.

Question: How many union members are not firemen?

Ms. Dexter is taking a political position with her reversal of her own prior OPINION. It's not a legal ruling.

Guess it's going to take years and long court journey's to straighten this out.
People, and their self-serving interests.

Starting to make me wonder how many of them are qualified to put out fires.

[Limabean]

So you are wondering if Gomez, Westcott, Eagleon and Martinson are qualified to put out fires?

[Wrinkle]

Actually, now that we've opened this up, union's representing fire dept employees probably shouldn't even issue candidate endorsements.

We let them get away with that, so naturally, they want more.

Should anyone point out that the contract is between the City and the union in the first place?

They can't both represent our firefighters and a PAC at the same time.

[Wrinkle]

So you are wondering if Gomez, Westcott, Eagleon and Martinson are qualified to put out fires?

...that the best ya got?

[Wrinkle]

Starting to make me wonder how many of them are qualified to put out fires.

Just to clarify, since that can be interpreted a couple of ways...(but not with regard to councilors).

You see, once a bunch starts compromising their record keeping, it's hard to know or be sure which records are accurate anymore.

I was suggesting that if the same methodologies used to achieve EMS certifications were also used to certify fire fighting personel, we can no longer be sure who's actually qualified at this point.

...may mean they all need to re-certify at this point.

[shadows]

Hmm, I'm trying to decide if "Three councilors and a bunch of firemen" would be better as the name for a rock group or a porno flick.

Seem the price of the initiation fee to join the group is awful high for just to be a part time player.  There must be some fringe benefits attached for the public to dole out that kind of money to spend Tulsa into prosperity.  If they play in the BOK arena how much will the tickets be?

[Limabean]

Glad you brought up the BOK Arena which reminded me of something else Gomez said at the LWV District 4 Forum.

When asked if they approved the building of the new ballpark, Gomez told the audience that (excuse my paraphrase) "Look, the Drillers were going to leave Tulsa if we didn't build them a new ballpark."

So were the Drillers threatening the citizenry of Tulsa to leave? Was this a scare tactic?

At least the firefighters can actually save your life.

[Conan71]

Seem the price of the initiation fee to join the group is awful high for just to be a part time player.  There must be some fringe benefits attached for the public to dole out that kind of money to spend Tulsa into prosperity.  If they play in the BOK arena how much will the tickets be?

Good one Shadows...

[sgrizzle]

Glad you brought up the BOK Arena which reminded me of something else Gomez said at the LWV District 4 Forum.

When asked if they approved the building of the new ballpark, Gomez told the audience that (excuse my paraphrase) "Look, the Drillers were going to leave Tulsa if we didn't build them a new ballpark."

So were the Drillers threatening the citizenry of Tulsa to leave? Was this a scare tactic?

At least the firefighters can actually save your life.

Yes, the Drillers were moving to a new facility and at the time, the only offer was in Jenks.

[Townsend]

Is it reasonable that when Gomez saw a fireman in a Chris Trail shirt at the TyPros event Gomez told him he would be sorry for wearing that shirt?

Oh please, I've known Gomez for years.  He doesn't talk like that you rumor mongering idiot.

Nobody outside film noir talks like that.

"you'll be sorry"  (fist in air shaking back and forth)

[Conan71]

Gomez did tell me last night that either his sister or sister-in-law lives in D-5 and the fire farters showed up on her doorstep.  Apparently she was real upset with them.  I've not seen them canvassing my 'hood.  I'm in D-4, but just barely.