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New sports bar downtown

Started by OurTulsa, October 08, 2009, 02:18:55 PM

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RecycleMichael

Quote from: Hoss on October 15, 2009, 10:09:40 PM
He did just sign a new behemoth of a forward today though (6'6", 245lbs). 

That is a big skater. Let me guess...he likes to fight.
Power is nothing till you use it.

TheArtist

Slightly off topic but still relevant to the conversation.... Was talking to a friend yesterday and he mentioned that they were having a small convention/ball and said they were having it in Fayetteville.  I was like, "Why Fayetteville and not Tulsa?"  Apparently they had the convention in Tulsa previously and went to Downtown Tulsa earlier this year to scout things out and make a descision for this year.  The opinion was that downtown Tulsa was "scary" not enough clubs, bars, etc. in one spot compared to Dixon Street in Fayetteville. The streets were dead in downtown Tulsa compared to Dixon Street where you could walk up and down the strip, there is lots going on, often live outdoor music, plenty of places to choose from and to go from one to the next.  Also they could stay relatively nearby in inexpensive, but nice, hotels and get good clean new, Taxi service. The taxi service in Tulsa was also described as "scary" lol, and the downtown hotels were the more expensive kind versus new budget hotels they could get in Fayetteville.

I know we can argue against their descisions and say they were wrong or silly, but they still chose Fayetteville over Tulsa.  The main reason seems to be the usual assessment we have all come to before.... Tulsa has a lot of stuff, all the parts, but spreads them out all over the place.
"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h

Hoss

Quote from: RecycleMichael on October 16, 2009, 09:15:04 AM
That is a big skater. Let me guess...he likes to fight.

Actually, his PIMs don't really indicate that, although if you do a you tube search of 'Derek Merlini', you might find a few fight videos.

;D

TheTed

Quote from: TheArtist on October 16, 2009, 09:19:07 AM
Slightly off topic but still relevant to the conversation.... Was talking to a friend yesterday and he mentioned that they were having a small convention/ball and said they were having it in Fayetteville.  I was like, "Why Fayetteville and not Tulsa?"  Apparently they had the convention in Tulsa previously and went to Downtown Tulsa earlier this year to scout things out and make a descision for this year.  The opinion was that downtown Tulsa was "scary" not enough clubs, bars, etc. in one spot compared to Dixon Street in Fayetteville. The streets were dead in downtown Tulsa compared to Dixon Street where you could walk up and down the strip, there is lots going on, often live outdoor music, plenty of places to choose from and to go from one to the next.  Also they could stay relatively nearby in inexpensive, but nice, hotels and get good clean new, Taxi service. The taxi service in Tulsa was also described as "scary" lol, and the downtown hotels were the more expensive kind versus new budget hotels they could get in Fayetteville.

I know we can argue against their descisions and say they were wrong or silly, but they still chose Fayetteville over Tulsa.  The main reason seems to be the usual assessment we have all come to before.... Tulsa has a lot of stuff, all the parts, but spreads them out all over the place.

Our lack of foot traffic is a major problem in terms of perceptions of downtown. Even on the busiest Saturday night in the Blue Dome District, you can sit out on the patio at Joe Momma's and hardly see anybody walking by during the duration of your meal. And that's in the most happening part of downtown. When I'm walking around the rest of downtown, I get all giddy when I see a fellow non-bum walking or biking somewhere (and not just to their car 50 feet away).

The ballpark will help that problem a little bit, but it's still a major issue. Everything is spread out. Nobody lives downtown. There's no transit and everybody just drives and parks at their destination, meaning completely lifeless streetscapes everywhere.

Cherry Street and Brookside are far better in terms of not feeling dead because at least people have to park a few blocks away, then the number of attractions packed together leads them to wander around a little before driving home.
 

TheTed

For smallish cities, I really think we need to look more at Memphis and less at OKC. I've never been that impressed with OKC's foot traffic. It always seems pretty dead except right at the ballpark and arena.

Memphis, on the other hand, you go there on a weekend and the level of foot traffic on Beale could almost be Chicago or New York. I haven't seen another smallish city with as much life downtown as Memphis. And it's because everything is packed so close together (ballpark, arena, Beale Street, Peabody Place, etc). The arena is literally half a block from the heart of Beale. Plus it doesn't hurt that their arena has two regular tenants who draw large crowds in the dead of winter (the NBA grizzlies and NCAA tigers).
 

cannon_fodder

William - this is where your desire to see "A" streets will come into play.  Direct foot traffic to "HOT" spots and radiate out from there.   Dead zones in downtowns are not rare . . .but many, most, or at least the places with good reputations direct the traffic that there is.

Walk 2 blocks from Beale Street and you can be in a ghost town (a scary ghost town).  A little further than that off of Bourbon and it dies out.  Ever been downtown KC?  The Power and Light District is HOPPING, but stray too far away and it dies down.  Hell, walk a (really long) block north of the Strip in Vegas and it is dead.

Additionally, all those places have a MAJOR venue feeding those entertainment districts.  Imagine the foot traffic if the BOk center was placed in the giant empty surface parking lots near the Blue Dome, the ball park is going in, etc.  *sigh*  As it stand, you leave the BOK Center and leave.  You have to work to stay downtown.  :(

Pay attention city planners!
- - - - - - - - -
I crush grooves.

TheTed

Even our entertainment districts are not dense enough to encourage foot traffic. Memphis and KC, the entertainment districts are packed so close together you have to park and walk a bit.

The Blue Dome and Brady are both kind of spread out where you just park near where you're going, which kills any hopes of foot traffic. We need some significant density increases in both.
 

Conan71

Quote from: TheTed on October 16, 2009, 12:35:13 PM
Even our entertainment districts are not dense enough to encourage foot traffic. Memphis and KC, the entertainment districts are packed so close together you have to park and walk a bit.

The Blue Dome and Brady are both kind of spread out where you just park near where you're going, which kills any hopes of foot traffic. We need some significant density increases in both.

I don't see either one of those districts as being spread-out, per se.  Pretty much everything is within three blocks which is about the length of Beale Street.  I do realize Beale has density on both sides, but it's also got a 30 or so year head-start on our downtown development.  I've not been to Memphis since they built the Fedex arena, can't imagine how that has changed that segment of the city.

I've got a good story about getting lost on the wrong part of Danny Thomas Blvd. after dark in a rented BMW, but I'll save that for another time.
"It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first" -Ronald Reagan

Red Arrow

Quote from: Conan71 on October 16, 2009, 03:34:13 PM
in a rented BMW, but I'll save that for another time.

The only place I had an option to rent a BMW was Germany.  Then it was a 316 or a 520 in 1995. I opted for the 316.  You must have better connections than I do.
 

JoeMommaBlake

So I went to a movie tonight at AMC. I literally parked in the corner of that massive parking lot. Seriously. The parking lot is as big as Coweta and I parked in the far corner of it because it was that full. Competing with high school football, all kinds of hayrides and haunted houses, OU v Texas, etc. and it was loaded. I did a little math. The AMC has 20 theater rooms, each holding at least a couple hundred people. Let's say then, that there are 4000 seats in that theater (and that's conservative). On a night like tonight where "Where the Wild Things Are" came out, the place was mostly full all night long. Wave after wave from 5PM to midnight. That's around 20,000 people who went to that theater today alone. We like arenas and ballparks, but neither do for an area what a movie theater does. Also, neither make as much money and neither are open 365 days a year. If we want to get people downtown, the most simple solution is build a multi-plex. Tulsans love movies, there are no competing theaters close by (within miles and miles), and there are more empty lots than we will ever fill up with cars or new buildings. Imagine a movie theater in that big stupid parking lot across from Joe Momma's.  The Blue Dome District would have 10 times the visitors and our restaurants would be full all the time. There would actually be a need for more of them....and when there's a need for restaurants, restaurateurs get excited about opening them.

Part of the problem in the Blue Dome is that most of the businesses are on the same block, but across the street from that block in any area, there's almost nothing. There's no place where you feel you're in the middle of something and "feel is very important to an entertainment district." If you're at McNellie's, there's nothing next door on either side, a parking lot and an office building across the street, and you can't even see across the street to Joe Momma's because of Sak and Associates. If you're at El Guapo's, you look across the street at an office building one direction and a two story red building that's being used for storage in the other. If you're at Joe Momma's, you look at a parking lot across the street. If you're at Dwelling Spaces, you also look across the street at a parking lot. If you're at what was once The Blank Slate (now the IDL Ballroom) you look across the street at a parking garage one direction and the MET in the other direction. Only Dirty's, Arnie's, and Dilly Delly have visible across the street neighbors. It feels like an island. The Blue Dome is not a strip, it's a square. . . Brookside and Cherry Street feel like something's going on because no matter where you are, you have a view of things going on right across the street. In the Blue Dome, not so much, even though when you think about it, we have several cool restaurants and bars. As Elgin develops, and it's happening, the strip may come into it's own. We've got a retro bar going in next door to Joe Momma's, a BBQ place in the alley behind it, a bowling alley happening south of Dilly Deli, and another bar south of the porn shop. Hopefully, from the ballpark heading south, Elgin becomes a thriving strip of activity that starts to feel like a 6th street in Austin, a Beale Street, or at the very least...Cherry Street or Brookside.

Tulsa is spread out. Our options for fun are scattered all over the place. Right now, we can't even hang with most college towns when it comes to entertainment and nightlife. The earlier comment about planning is right on the money. Maybe someday, the empty spaces will start to fill in and things will be different, but because of years of bad planning, even our downtown doesn't have one cohesive entertainment area. Imagine if you grouped the ballpark, arena, brady district restaurants and bars, blue dome restaurants and bars, and the stuff on (or close by) the square (including the hotels). Now you have a killer downtown entertainment center.

In the meantime, the best thing we can all do is continue to support the downtown eateries and bars. Because things are spread out, it may take a little more time to seem festive, but we've got the beginnings of something. Brady has a good feel, Main St. by the Cains has some life, and The Blue Dome is still one of the best concentration of local restaurants in town....that, or build a movie theater.

"Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably will not themselves be realized."
- Daniel Burnham

http://www.joemommastulsa.com

TheArtist

  I agree, a movie theater downtown, not stuck out by itself somewhere but in one of the budding entertainment districts, would be great. That lot opposite Joe Mommas or in that area would be my first pick.

  Also, glad to hear there is a Bowling Alley going in.  :)
"When you only have two pennies left in the world, buy a loaf of bread with one, and a lily with the other."-Chinese proverb. "Arts a staple. Like bread or wine or a warm coat in winter. Those who think it is a luxury have only a fragment of a mind. Mans spirit grows hungry for art in the same way h

Nic Nac

I have always felt that the critical location for development in downtown is the lot across from Joe Momma's.  It's going to take some deep pockets to acquire and develop it though.  The developers able to take on a project like this I suspect will be sitting back for some time given the climate now and risks involved in downtown tulsa for something that size.  In addition the land is not being actively marketed (did I read $3M at one time?).  If only Kaiser would purchase it and sell off in manageable peices!   

Glad to hear the bowling alley is going forward too.  Who is doing it? 

JoeMommaBlake

"Make no little plans. They have no magic to stir men's blood and probably will not themselves be realized."
- Daniel Burnham

http://www.joemommastulsa.com

Red Arrow