New sports bar downtown

[SXSW]

A good unique downtown theater would not only bring us downtown more often, but would be an attraction for visitors.

Unique is the key word.  If it's just another run-of-the-mill AMC that happens to be downtown I don't think it would be a big enough draw.  Maybe if downtown was already 'the place to be' but it's not..at least not currently.  It needs to be large but not too big, 8-10 screens would be fine.  It needs to be digital as that would set it apart from other theaters like the Warren does in Moore.  And it needs to be a beautiful space, either retro Art Deco or cutting edge contemporary.  Let's just say we don't need something like the Palace 12 or Riverwalk 8 downtown..

I still think Alamo Drafthouse or an urban Warren would be amazing downtown along Elgin. 
http://www.drafthouse.com/main/franchise/

[PonderInc]

Many years ago, I lived in Colorado Springs.  There was a groovy place downtown called Poor Richards.  In adjacent buildings (with connecting doorways inside), they had a used bookstore, a coffee shop/magazine stand, and a restaurant.  In the back of the coffee shop, they had a small space where they showed independent movies.

Over time, the movie business grew so much that they purchased the old (vacant) movie house several blocks away.  It was the original downtown theater, with red curtains, ornate architectural details and a balcony.  They fixed it up, and continued showing indy movies, but also showed selected first runs. 

There's a martini bar in Portland, OR that shows classic movies cabaret style. (I haven't been, but I've heard about it.)  Kind of a cool idea...

[Conan71]

Many years ago, I lived in Colorado Springs.  There was a groovy place downtown called Poor Richards.  In adjacent buildings (with connecting doorways inside), they had a used bookstore, a coffee shop/magazine stand, and a restaurant.  In the back of the coffee shop, they had a small space where they showed independent movies.

Over time, the movie business grew so much that they purchased the old (vacant) movie house several blocks away.  It was the original downtown theater, with red curtains, ornate architectural details and a balcony.  They fixed it up, and continued showing indy movies, but also showed selected first runs. 

There's a martini bar in Portland, OR that shows classic movies cabaret style. (I haven't been, but I've heard about it.)  Kind of a cool idea...

One thing which impressed me about Co. Springs was how well they enforce local codes.  I used to stay at the Antlers Doubletree downtown and would walk to dinner just about every night.  Didn't matter which way you walked through downtown, there were no junk cars parked in front of houses, most had very well-kept paint, and were kept pretty tidy. 

Great little city, they were starting to experience a lot of growth in the late '90's early '00's due to a lot of high tech relocating there.  Curious how the city has been able to keep up with that.

[Hoss]

One thing which impressed me about Co. Springs was how well they enforce local codes.  I used to stay at the Antlers Doubletree downtown and would walk to dinner just about every night.  Didn't matter which way you walked through downtown, there were no junk cars parked in front of houses, most had very well-kept paint, and were kept pretty tidy. 

Great little city, they were starting to experience a lot of growth in the late '90's early '00's due to a lot of high tech relocating there.  Curious how the city has been able to keep up with that.

Never ventured too far into Co Springs, but I have been to and from their airport several times; it is probably one of the cleanest I've ever seen.  I can remember waiting for my flight via WestPac (harhar) and the absolutely spectacular view of Pikes Peak out of the concourse window to the west.

[pfox]

The issue with a theater complex downtown is *choke* parking.  The big multi-plex theaters want dedicated parking; x number of spaces at their front door (see Bricktown).  I agree that it is a sad state of affairs, but until downtown is more populated, and we have a better transit system, a theater is relying on people, in cars, to come see their movies.  The best option is to have a smaller theater, locally owned, who will be more flexible with their thinking about parking.  Blake is right about one thing.  The more there is to do around the theater, the higher likelihood that people will park once, eat, shop, and go to a movie....it's the mall concept.  So, as boring as it sounds, the best thing that the city of tulsa planners can do to stimulate development is to deal with the so-called parking issue.  I don't mean more surface lots, (there are plenty of those) but creative parking solutions: strategically located facilities that can be used to pull in those who have trepidation about being downtown.

[Conan71]

The issue with a theater complex downtown is *choke* parking.  The big multi-plex theaters want dedicated parking; x number of spaces at their front door (see Bricktown).  I agree that it is a sad state of affairs, but until downtown is more populated, and we have a better transit system, a theater is relying on people, in cars to come see their movies.  The best option is to have a smaller theater, locally owned, who will be more flexible with their thinking about parking.  Blake is right about one thing.  The more there is to do around the theater, the higher likelihood that people will park once, eat, shop, and go to a movie....it's the mall concept.  So, as boring as it sounds, the best thing that the city of tulsa planners can do to stimulate development is to deal with the so-called parking issue.  I don't mean more surface lots, (there are plenty of those) but creative parking solutions: strategically located facilities that can be used to pull in those who have trepidation about being downtown.

With the general lack of interest in mass transit in Tulsa, it will be a very, very long time for something to happen like that if what you are saying is holding back a national chain from building downtown.

That lot east of Elgin between 1st & 2nd is plenty big enough for a theater and parking garage.  Maybe not a 20 screen multiplex, but you could have a good sized theater.  The parking garage would solve a lot of parking issues for other businesses in the immediate area.

[pfox]

Exactly...but the garage could also serve as additional parking for other development than the theater, and possibly overflow parking for City of Tulsa employees.

I hope you are wrong, btw, about the "general lack of interest" in mass transit...

[joiei]

With the general lack of interest in mass transit in Tulsa, it will be a very, very long time for something to happen like that if what you are saying is holding back a national chain from building downtown.

That lot east of Elgin between 1st & 2nd is plenty big enough for a theater and parking garage.  Maybe not a 20 screen multiplex, but you could have a good sized theater.  The parking garage would solve a lot of parking issues for other businesses in the immediate area.

THere is a movie theater in downtown Springfield, MO that has a parking garage adjacent.  It is a Hollywood theater with 14 screens if I remember correctly.  Why can't we have something like that?   

[JoeMommaBlake]

I'm still really hopeful that at some point (soon) we can take the first steps towards a transit/garage combo that would allow for an interconnected group of parking structures, all of which help their respective areas to grow. Imagine a nice parking garage to the southeast of city hall in that big lot (it would service the PAC, city hall, and Blue Dome Districts and would leave the lot across the street from Joe Momma's for some cooler development), a garage behind brookside, at each end of Cherry Street, on 11th street, in the Brady, and on 6th Street, and maybe one west of Pink at 18th and Boston. I know we have plenty of parking available in many of these places, but that doesn't mean we don't have a parking problem. Creating high density parking lots does some really important things: 1. It deals with a perception issue. Parking garages are seen as safe and as being plentiful and for some reason, people will pay to park in garage when they don't want to pay for a surface lot. 2. They solve a huge problem for developers that pfox alluded to. They create a big chuck of immediate parking in proximity. 3. They make other surface lots worthless as parking lots and suddenly more valuable as a development site. 4. In neighborhood settings, they keep houses from being bulldozed for parking. In some of those areas I mentioned, they would solve a current parking problem (brookside and cherry street), while in others, they would serve as a part of the stimulation of the development process. The Pearl simply has to have parking in order to develop. Right now, there is none. 5. They shrink our spread out city into a navigable network of entertainment clusters. If you can park on Brookside, trolley to Cherry Street and then to downtown and back without driving, you just made all of midtown's entertainment options a one-stop location. That would be huge for all of us.

Champions of walkability and density are going to have to come to the conclusion (at least in Tulsa), that their cause will never happen if we don't solve the car problem. In general, we're not going to get Tulsans to abandon their automobiles, so the next best thing is giving them a place to put them while they walk (or trolley) around.

If smaller sized parking garages existed in those places I just mentioned, with a strong, consistent trolley network, it would do more for Rt. 66, Pearl District, and Blue Dome District development than anything else. I really believe that...than anything else.

As for the theater thing, I don't think a 20 screen humungo-plex is the right fit. I can see two concepts even working down here at the same time. The smaller two or three screen vintage theater with food and booze is a sure-fire success and maybe an 8-12 screen AMC type theater. AMC and Cinemark seem to be the most willing to locate in downtowns or dense areas. I know there's a Cinemark at the Plaza in KC and an AMC at the Power and Light District. Not a ton of parking immediately next to them if I recall. If there is, it's a parking garage....

[Conan71]

Exactly...but the garage could also serve as additional parking for other development than the theater, and possibly overflow parking for City of Tulsa employees.

I hope you are wrong, btw, about the "general lack of interest" in mass transit...

I hope I'm wrong too about my comment on mass transit, but amongst my contemporaries and comments I see on here, with the exception of very few people, I don't hear much solid interest in people giving up their automobile life-style.  The image of mass transit in this town is only people who cannot afford or cannot drive a car are the ones who ride the bus.  If gas prices had stayed in the $4.00 to $5.00 range (and I'm sure they will return there at some point) there would be far more interest in less expensive forms of transportation.

[pfox]

I hope I'm wrong too about my comment on mass transit, but amongst my contemporaries and comments I see on here, with the exception of very few people, I don't hear much solid interest in people giving up their automobile life-style. The image of mass transit in this town is only people who cannot afford or cannot drive a car are the ones who ride the bus.  If gas prices had stayed in the $4.00 to $5.00 range (and I'm sure they will return there at some point) there would be far more interest in less expensive forms of transportation.

Here is the crux of the disconnect regarding transit.   As transit systems are planned and expanded across the country, similar questions and trepidations emerge, almost universally, about what an improved transit system will mean for a community, and even more specifically, what kind of communities "justify" transit.  For many people, transit tends to be visualized as serving only older, high density communities, where transit is the primary means of travel, aside from walking, and as a subsidized system for economically depressed areas.  (All transportation systems are subsidized, some of them, like streets and highways, we have just come to accept.)

The argument for transit isn't "transit will replace your car".  What it does is replace trips, reducing number of a to b destination trips for those that utilize the service,  The formula is not A (Transit) = B (No more cars).  The formula is A (Transit)=  B (our existing road system's LOS (level of service) remains sustainable despite significant growth in population and density), C (reduces the need for roadway expansion), D (reduces long term roadway maintenance issues),  E (improvies air quality) and F (creates new, walkable, higher density neighborhoods in core areas like downtown).

[JoeMommaBlake]

Beautiful, pfox. It's like reading poetry.

[Conan71]

The more there is to do around the theater, the higher likelihood that people will park once, eat, shop, and go to a movie....it's the mall concept.  So, as boring as it sounds, the best thing that the city of tulsa planners can do to stimulate development is to deal with the so-called parking issue.  I don't mean more surface lots, (there are plenty of those) but creative parking solutions: strategically located facilities that can be used to pull in those who have trepidation about being downtown.

I'm already a huge fan and regular patron of downtown.  It seems the only people who complain about the parking situation, homelessness, security issues, and lack of things to do downtown never go down there, otherwise that would not be their paradigm.

I hate to invoke "Bricktown" but there's a perfect example of "plenty to do within a few blocks" which gets people to park once and go to several places.  Case in point: We had a rowing regatta in OKC the first weekend of Oct.  I stayed at the Bricktown Hampton.  They have an attached parking garage which is for hotel guests and general Bricktown parking.  The ballpark was closed for the season but that didn't keep a bunch of us (and others) from dining on the balcony at Coach's overlooking the field.  It's still a compelling view and Bricktown has been a better fit for their ball park than the one at the OKC Fairgrounds.  It's a feel of critical mass which gets people to a "district".

I honestly do think the Tulsa downtown ball park (controversial as it may be) will spark more development and interest in downtown than 52 years of DTU did.  Regular investment and expansion of OSU Tulsa plus the ballpark won't hurt Greenwood, Blue Dome, or the Brady districts either.  I don't care if the ballpark is dark 300 nights a year, it's the idea that there is MORE to do in downtown: a very active arena, three other notable live music venues, new hotels opening or under development, more apartments or condos (kudos to the Mayo for a dual concept), and an availabiliy of office space and entrepreneurs like Blake, Eliot Nelson, Mary Beth Babcock and others who have sunk a considerable investment in downtown to make it a destination, not just a place to cater to those who are already there.

Your comments on transit are appreciated, especially the comment about reducing trips.  I've never heard it put that way before.  I know if my grocery store and a few other necessities were located within four or five blocks of my house, I'd use the truck far less.  It's not a matter of being lazy for me, simply time-management. 

[pfox]

Beautiful, pfox. It's like reading poetry.

I have my moments.

[Red Arrow]

...The image of mass transit in this town is only people who cannot afford or cannot drive a car are the ones who ride the bus... 

It's not only Tulsa when transit is a bus.  In the 1930s to maybe the 50s, a bus was the better ride in many places. Privately owned rail transit was not often not maintained due to low profit caused by (often unfair) competition from the auto and buses. Most streetcar/trolley/interurban companies went out of business or were converted to bus by the organizations that bought them.  Since then, bus transit has the reputation you describe.  Light rail and streetcars (real trolley) have a much better acceptance among riders of choice.  See my favorite light rail site:  www.lightrailnow.org and poke around a bit.  Park and ride lots/garages are a good idea and used elsewhere around the US. For Tulsa, the first P&R Lots would probably be near but not in downtown.  The cost to park would need to be minimal to free or they won't be used. Consider them to be the equivalent of shopping mall parking lots that should be supported by the city and/or the local businesses in order to attract business rather than another way to milk money out of visitors.  Yes, another subsidy to get folks downtown to spend money. As the Tulsa area got used to transit of choice, the system could be expanded farther towards the suburbs.  It won't happen overnight but we don't need nothing but miles of row houses to make transit work.

Pfox is right about all forms of transportation being subsidized.  I have only seen about a half dozen people using the new sidewalks along Memorial between 101st and 111th and I don't see any toll gates. Pretty expensive per person-mile.  I did see a couple walking through the parking lots on the east side close to 111th on the northbound side.  I guess they didn't like the idea of the sidewalk being so close to Memorial traffic with nearly empty connecting parking lots a safer distance away.  I think I would feel safer being 30 ft from Memorial rather than 2 feet from 45-50 mph traffic.