New sports bar downtown

[we vs us]

Are there American cities the size (in pop) of Tulsa that have a significantly better or more extensive transit system than we do?  I'd love a model to look at that says it can be done. 

[cannon_fodder]

Are there American cities the size (in pop) of Tulsa that have a significantly better or more extensive transit system than we do?  I'd love a model to look at that says it can be done.  

Albuquerque (population ~500,000, metro 840K, density 2800 people per square mile - first hand this is widly successful) & Portland (600K/2.2mil/4300) both have quality buses and some rail service.  As does Salt Lake (180K/1.1mil/1700), Charlotte (690K/2.5mil/2500), and New Orleans (300K/1.1mil/2500) kept its trolley cars (limited service) and has a solid bus network.

Most any college town has decent public transportation (Tulsa has many college students all spread out).

Kenosha, Wisconsin installed a light rail street car system recently.  Kenosha has all of 90,000 people and can be seen as the northern most suburb of Chicago (not really).   The street car connects the central district with the commuter rail lines leading to Chicago/Milwaukee (regional rail).  The cost of the street car project was $3,000,000 per mile.

Major cities are putting in light rail more and more.  In addition to the long standing lines in New York, Chicago, LA, San Francisco, DC and Seattle there are newer and growing lines in Vegas, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Houston, Dallas, San Jose, Pittsburgh, San Diego, Jacksonville, Orlando, Memphis, Tampa, Detroit, Phoenix, and on and on and on.  

Interesting light rail page I found:
http://www.lightrailnow.org/

My guess - no one in Tulsa will give a crap about rail until OKC is connected to Wichita by Amtrak and puts in commuter rail from Edmond through to Norman - maybe with a street trolley system downtown to boot.  Then, all of a sudden (about 8 years later), Tulsans will give a damn.  Can we be ahead of the curve once?

/mods, split the threat into a transit thread?

[MichaelBates]

About like walking a city block in downtown Tulsa. 

Yes, but downtown in that distance you'd likely be able to duck under an awning or into a building out of the rain, and you wouldn't be dodging cars driving willy-nilly across the parking lot. Walking from the transit stop to the front door of a store in a suburban shopping strip you don't have either of those advantages.

FWIW, I tried to point this out in a column about a year ago, and the notion had Kenosha condemning me as a rail hater. Happy to see other people making the same observation. Until every transit user can do all their shopping, doctor's visits, etc., in transit-oriented developments, you have to make the curb-to-front-door distance more tolerable for transit riders.

[Renaissance]

It's silly to think Tulsa will ever layer a grid of light rail atop the current transportation infrastructure.  It's not needed and totally cost-ineffective--even moreso than building new roads. 

What's NOT absurd is to seriously consider point-to-point commuter rail transit, as Tulsa Transit and other entities are currently studying.  Those a) take advantage of existing infrastructure; b) take the costs down out of the stratosphere; c) have a natural, built-in user base; and d) have the very real ability to relieve traffic congestion.

On the final point, it's very important to understand that incremental increases in traffic load can cause massive spikes in congestion.  Conversely, incremental relief in traffic load (taking commuters off the road and onto commuter rail), has the potential to seriously relieve traffic congestion.  Read this Freakonomics blog post for more: http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/30/a-gut-yontif-for-la-drivers/.

[dbacks fan]

Just my $.02. I thought a long time ago that Tulsa Transit needed to implement a grid system for the buses to use instead of the route system. I was looking at the schedules and I see that other than some specfic night routes all the buses seem to go to the garage by 7:30 or 8:00 in the evening. I'm not going to try a comparison between Phoenix and Tulsa directly but I think there are some ideas Tulsa Transit should look at including Sunday service. ( If I missed that there was for give me)

http://www.valleymetro.org/

[dbacks fan]

BOT, I was looking at the BOk schedule from the end of October through mid April and it seems that there is something going on about every 3 to 5 days on various nights of the week, so it seems that a sports bar two blocks away would have a chance to draw business on those nights. I understand there will be nights that there isn't and event at BOk, and they will need to paly on the sports bar idea with good food and drink prices. I'm sure they will get some of the lunch and after work crowd, but do things like $1.00 off pitchers if you are wearing a Thunder jersey on game night, free appy with ticket stub, meet and greet sessions with the teams. I think it would have been nice if they could have put the ball park near the arena. ( I'm sure this has been brought up before) Then you couls have an entertain ment district and a sports district and mixed usage in between.

[Red Arrow]

Interesting light rail page I found:
http://www.lightrailnow.org/

Maybe more people will look at it now that you have posted it compared to the last year and a half I have been posting it.

[Red Arrow]

Yes, but downtown in that distance you'd likely be able to duck under an awning or into a building out of the rain, and you wouldn't be dodging cars driving willy-nilly across the parking lot. Walking from the transit stop to the front door of a store in a suburban shopping strip you don't have either of those advantages.

FWIW, I tried to point this out in a column about a year ago, and the notion had Kenosha condemning me as a rail hater. Happy to see other people making the same observation. Until every transit user can do all their shopping, doctor's visits, etc., in transit-oriented developments, you have to make the curb-to-front-door distance more tolerable for transit riders.

I haven't seen that many awnings but I don't get downtown that often.  Someone, Artist maybe, noted that the awning concept along with interconnected stores make a walk in bad weather more tolerable but that it doesn't exist much in Tulsa.

Depends on the parking lot whether or not there are a bunch of willy-nilly drivers.  In a big empty lot - yes.  I haven't seen much to grab my attention in crowded areas.  I usually park away from door-dinging crowds and have had no problem.  Maybe willy-nilly speed demon parking lot drivers are like downtown crime/thugs, lack of parking, stolen cars.....  They exist but are not at the head of the list around here. 

I have read that most folks are willing to walk about 1/4 mile to transit facilities.  From Memorial to the very east end of Woodland Hills mall parking lots, excluding the Christmas shopping season overflow lot is about 1/2 mile.  That's pretty much less than 1/4 from any parking spot to the mall.  FWIW, the bus stops by the north entrance to the mall near Sears.  The North-South dimension of WHM is less than East-West.

[OurTulsa]

We are also ignoring the "if you build it" mentality.  Downtown Tulsa used to have street cars.  It also used to have residence, shops, and a street scape that didn't include vast deserts of open parking. 

Currently areas like Brookside, Cherry Street, and downtown could easily benefit from good mass transit.  But with a good mass transit system other areas could quickly be brought into the fold (including the apartment blocks in South Tulsa, TU, 71st Street area, downtown Jenks/BA).  Add to that the idea that the mass transit and connectivity in one area would FEED other areas and help create the environment many of us desire.

It is a catch 22. Without mass transit the density isn't there to require it.  But without the density mass transit isn't really needed.  With infinite land and a strong desire to sprawl, I'm guessing the demand will never be there even if we continue to grow.  So if we want dense, sustainable, urban spaces - it looks like the mass transit will have to come first.

Exactly.  I like to think of a rail based system, or single line for that matter, as an investment in a future Tulsa, one that I would like to live in.  The fixed transit line coupled with better land use codes that encouraged dense walkable transit oriented development surrounding could help shape a corridor and can guide re-investment in our City. 

A commitment to some sort of fixed transit system and a better urban environment in portions of our city would give us lifestyle options that we can use to promote our city but also give those of us who love urbanism a place to mix... support cultural exchange, promote social equality, mode choices, environmental benefits, yada yada yada too.

[TheArtist]

I haven't seen that many awnings but I don't get downtown that often.  Someone, Artist maybe, noted that the awning concept along with interconnected stores make a walk in bad weather more tolerable but that it doesn't exist much in Tulsa.

Depends on the parking lot whether or not there are a bunch of willy-nilly drivers.  In a big empty lot - yes.  I haven't seen much to grab my attention in crowded areas.  I usually park away from door-dinging crowds and have had no problem.  Maybe willy-nilly speed demon parking lot drivers are like downtown crime/thugs, lack of parking, stolen cars.....  They exist but are not at the head of the list around here.  

I have read that most folks are willing to walk about 1/4 mile to transit facilities.  From Memorial to the very east end of Woodland Hills mall parking lots, excluding the Christmas shopping season overflow lot is about 1/2 mile.  That's pretty much less than 1/4 from any parking spot to the mall.  FWIW, the bus stops by the north entrance to the mall near Sears.  The North-South dimension of WHM is less than East-West.

Yes, I really think we do need to start promoting and educating folk downtown about the importance of things like: awnings, interconnected buildings, loggias, etc.  

I think its something that has simply been overlooked, their importance forgotten about.  Now that we are looking to "go back" to pedestrian friendly streets, details like these truly do matter in the long run. They should be part of the equation along with all the other things we commonly talk about.

I was going to Joe Mommas the other evening when it was raining, for a meeting. I parked not too far away, but couldnt help but wish there were an awning or two to dart under here and there, especially while waiting for traffic so I could cross, or take a moment to shufflle what I was carrying so that I could open the door to some of those places if they were ones I was going to , shake the rain off my jacket and stomp my shoes before I open the door, etc. Joe Mommas itself has a covered area, Dwelling spaces has the front door set back with a covered area and the SW corner has a covered area and those help.  But some of the new buildings like the ones just finished being fixed east of Dilly Deli dont have those set backs near the doors, or awnings. That whole swath of street there is nothing but a wall with no protection. Heck, even the strip malls in the suburbs know better and have covered areas along the front. You can look at a lot of the old buildings and see where the attachment places were for awnings, and I even noticed the other day some old, original, roll out awnings on a building on Boston Ave, except that they were rolled back into slots on the building itself and I have never seen them used.  

A few of these ideas here and there would make an impact. But again, I think they have become forgotten, but important, details.  

[Red Arrow]

Albuquerque (population ~500,000, metro 840K, density 2800 people per square mile - first hand this is widly successful) & Portland (600K/2.2mil/4300) both have quality buses and some rail service.  

Albuquerque rail service consists of the Railrunner and Amtrak.  The Railrunner is Albuquerque's North-South commuter rail, similar to what the BA commuter rail would be.  These commuters can use the bus system for East-West connections if their destination is on a direct bus line.  It has been very well received.  The Railrunner was extended from a bit north of Albuquerque to Santa Fe. Amtrak drops and picks up a few passengers but not any significant number of commuters. Commuters from the west have buses that only stop every mile or two. The remainder of the bus system may be better than Tulsa's but it is still lacking in enough routes and run times for non major corridors.   Security is OK but there are significant numbers of hygiene deficient passengers. The system works but it may not be as widely successful as it appears to someone with Tulsa as a reference.  The new mayor is not as supportive of public transit as the old mayor.

Info is second hand from my sister who lives south of ABQ and uses the Railrunner to commute to work.

http://www.nmrailrunner.com/index.asp

edit: add URL for NM Railrunner

[cannon_fodder]

Red Arrow:

Exactly right on Albuquerque's rail.  Roundtrip to Santa Fe is like $4 or something.  It's heavily subsidized and LOVED.  They are starting to use train stops as a shuttle pickup point for the fair, UNM games, the Balloon Festival and other things too.

And yeah, that site DID look familiar.    I guess now I know why.   

[SXSW]

With the One Place project actually turning dirt across the street a sports bar at this location looks more viable than it did in 2009.  Anyone have any updates?

[carltonplace]

Still for sale, packaged with the art deco building to the south

http://www.loopnet.com/Listing/17139470/201-211-S-Cheyenne-Tulsa-OK/


Price:$1,949,000Building
Size:32,446 SFPrice/SF:$60.07
Property Type:OfficeProperty Sub-type:Office Building
Additional Sub-types:
Institutional/ Governmental
Office-R&D
RestaurantProperty
Use Type:Vacant/Owner-UserNo.
Stories:3Building Class:BLot
Size:21,000 SF