Consumer Wind Turbines?

[Mike 01Hawk]

Driving down from KS to OK on 35 and seeing the HUGE wind farm, got me thinking again.

We live on 2.5 acres near NSU BA.  I believe we'd be a good candidate for a moderate size pole.

Anyway, can someone chime in that's done the research for a consumer, ie Household.

We plan on staying in this house for the next 20-30 years, so if we could get a break even $ after say 10 years, that'd be okay.  I'd like to ultimately have a $0 electric bill.

[rwarn17588]

Having nine solar panels on my roof and an electric bill that seldom surpasses $20, I think I can give you sound advice before you start shopping around for wind turbines.

The single most important thing you can do before you start shopping for renewable energy options is to cut your power consumption. That way, you have a good chance of spending considerably less money on renewable options later simply because you don't need as much power.

I'm not talking about leading a caveman existence. Swap out regular light bulbs for compact fluorescents. Make sure you have enough insulation in your house. If you have an old appliance that'll go kaput soon, replace it with an Energy Star-rated appliance. If you have an electric water heater, swap it for a gas model or, better yet, a solar water heater (there's lot of tax breaks with those, too). If you need a new roof, make sure you install light-colored shingles instead of dark. These things I mentioned and others can cut your power usage by 50 percent or more. I can tell you this from experience.

As for wind, there are some promising and easy-to-install models out there, such as Mariah Wind. But truth be told, this part of Oklahoma is marginal for wind power. You have to be about 100 miles further west to truly get good benefits from wind power. It'd probably be best if you use a hybrid power system of wind and solar.

[Conan71]

The house I bought last spring has high-end thermal windows throughout and a high efficiency heating/cooling unit.  My highest electric bill this summer was $52, most recent was $36 or $38 I think.  It would take forever for me to get a good payback out of any sort of renewable energy source.  We'll see how the gas bills are this winter, but I suspect they will be a good deal lower than what they were in my last house.  I got more space with this house, but it's a lot more air-tight and has had all the good mechanical upgrades done to it.

[Mike 01Hawk]

Some stats to run thru:

We just moved into this house in June.  It's a 2 story / 2 zone, 3300 square feet, built in '86 (IIRC)  Since then I've replaced most of the "always on" lights with CFL and we just replaced some 30, yes.. as in THIRTY metal trim windows with Low-E Vinyl (that sorta hurt the pocket book!!!).  Roof was replaced last year along with every other roof in tulsa cause of the ice storms.

I haven't been monitoring my utility bills, but even I did, there's no way to get a base line cause we've done so many changes and haven't 'settled in'.

The only thing left I think we may do is put on some new siding, so that'll up the insulation a bit.

I know it's a pipe dream for the generator to 'earn income' but who knows, if we start now, maybe in 20 years we'll be turning a 'profit'.. lol.

I need to dig thru my past utility bills and have a 'wind study' I guess, heck, I just need to call the wind guys and have  rep come out and give us their pitch.

[rwarn17588]

I know it's a pipe dream for the generator to 'earn income' but who knows, if we start now, maybe in 20 years we'll be turning a 'profit'.. lol.

If you're thinking about tariff feeds in case you generate more electricity than you consume, forget it. Oklahoma and many other states do not pay you for generating more juice than you consume.

[TeeDub]

If you're thinking about tariff feeds in case you generate more electricity than you consume, forget it. Oklahoma and many other states do not pay you for generating more juice than you consume.

Ignore him..   

Net metering has been available in Oklahoma since 1988 under Oklahoma Corporation Commission (OCC) Order 326195.

[Mike 01Hawk]

So anyone look into Solar, Geo, or Wind power for their house?

[RecycleMichael]

Tulsa Public Schools is getting a new type small wind turbine donated in a couple of weeks at the site of the ropes course.

Send me a private message and I will send you an invite to the ceremony.

[Mike 01Hawk]

Thanks, RM.

BTW, here's the data I have so far.  The Per KWH is of course my 'realized' cost after all the taxes and what not, not the real rate of KWH.

   Date          KWH            $           Per KWH
10/12/2009     955      $75.21      $0.0788
9/11/2009   1,476      $108.65    $0.0736
8/12/2009   2,004      $145.93    $0.0728
7/14/2009   2,424      $175.79    $0.0725

[Wrinkle]

Ignore him..  

Net metering has been available in Oklahoma since 1988 under Oklahoma Corporation Commission (OCC) Order 326195.

Net Metering mostly allows running your meter backwards to zero, such that you can potentially have no electric bill. There's an annual max KWH to which this can apply, I believe 25,000 KWH/yr.

Beyond that, Net Metering output greater than your own usage will be purchased by the utility company at what's called the "Avoid Cost". That's the cost avoided by the utility company by not having to produce that energy. Typically, this is in the $0.02-$0.03/KWH range. So, don't plan to make any money this way.

It's also illegal to 'share' your generation with anyone around you in any way.

Oklahoma, like several other states, needs to push for what's called "Feed-In Tariffs" for energy produced in this manner. With Feed-In Tariffs, generators are paid wholesale market rates for all energy produced above their own useage.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feed-in_Tariff

[cannon_fodder]

Make sure to check ordinances/neighborhood codes.  In a few instances people have installed wind turbines only to be forced to remove them when the constant whir annoyed the hell out of their neighbors.  This noise varies by model, but while 2.5 acres is enough to put one in . . . it probably isn't enough to keep the noise away from neighbors if you choose a louder model.

[Wrinkle]

When evaluating small wind turbines, be careful about the ratings provided by the manufacturer. Small turbines are not rated the same way as are large wind turbines.

And, most small turbines use 12 mph as the rated windspeed when determining the turbines' output. Very few areas have an average windspeed of 12 mph or better. Be conscience of the fact that a 2 mph difference in average windspeed can produce a 50% change in output.

It's been awhile since I looked at small turbines (100KW and less), so the industry may have changed somewhat in the years since, but typically the first question asked is what is your current electric bill. From there, your installed cost becomes breakeven at 10 years, and assuming the above ratings, which probably will not happen. Try to get a unit cost on the turbine and seperate cost for installation. Do your own calcs. Understand your own wind resource. Don't be afraid to make an offer different from the one they give you, especially if your own calcs indicate a model supporting your offer.

[Wrinkle]

From what I've seen of the marketing marterials of small wind turbines lately, they tend to market them as 'reducing' your current bill, by around 30%-50%, rather than eliminating it.

That's because most small turbines simply cannot produce enough to power your entire place with a single turbine. They also tend to produce direct feed output to the grid (your place) rather than include a battery array for storage. Intermitant output, then, is lost when not used immediately. That is, your generation cost per KWH is likely to be higher than the Avoid-Cost paid you for excess generation.

Adding a battery array is costly, making the breakeven point much further away. Battery (or other) storage is the only way to have an on-demand system, which can utilize all the turbines' output.

The first question is if you intend to be Grid-Tied or not.

[Mike 01Hawk]

Grid Tied would be the way I'd want to go.

After doing a little digging, I see that the Skystream 3.7 w/ 12mph winds would only be producing ~400kWHr.  So, less than 1/4 of my needs during summer.

There was a rough quote of ~$90k to get enough solar to power my house from this board: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

That averages out to ~18c a kWHr, almost triple the current cost of electricity

So, I thought there might be a magic bullet, turns out there's not.  I've got bigger fish to fry (siding comes to mind).  I still have a lot of info to gather, granted, but I think I'll put this on the back burner for now.

[Conan71]

Grid Tied would be the way I'd want to go.

After doing a little digging, I see that the Skystream 3.7 w/ 12mph winds would only be producing ~400kWHr.  So, less than 1/4 of my needs during summer.

There was a rough quote of ~$90k to get enough solar to power my house from this board: http://www.wind-sun.com/ForumVB/

That averages out to ~18c a kWHr, almost triple the current cost of electricity

So, I thought there might be a magic bullet, turns out there's not.  I've got bigger fish to fry (siding comes to mind).  I still have a lot of info to gather, granted, but I think I'll put this on the back burner for now.

If Solar is that expensive (holy crap $90K?), and wind won't help with your needs, look into a higher seer a/c unit.  If your a/c is more than ten years old, there's likely efficiency to be gained there.  A/C units are the power hog of a house.  I don't see siding helping unless you are adding insulation underneath.  The windows you already did will be a big help. 

Your idea of a 10 year pay-back in your OP or 2nd post is what most commercial and industrial end-users look at when deciding if a project is viable or not.  Anything less than 10 years on large-scale energy conservation projects is considered a total bonus.

Several things which turned me on about the house I bought last spring were high end thermal windows, a high-end recent heating and cooling system, recent roof, good programmable thermostat, and some strategically-placed trees.  I've been amazed at how low my electric bills are and Lortondale houses are notorious for being energy hogs.