Police Layoffs

[swake]

Back in '93, when I was dating my now wife, her house near downtown was robbed, the thief took a bunch jewelry and other stuff. The police came out and did just about nothing. One of the things stolen was her father's class ring and her grandmother's watch. The family that owns Oliver's downtown are old friends of my wife's family and low and behold the thief took the ring and the watch to Oliver's Jewelry and Pawn. The thief had a homeless man pawn the stuff for him, but stood at the back of the store in view of the security cameras.

Oliver's had just happened to have repaired the watch just before the robbery and recognized it and the class ring. They bought as much as they could from the homeless man selling the stuff and got the homeless man to give them the name of the kid at the back of the store that he was pawning the stuff for. They gave my wife the stuff they bought back, fingerprints and all, the name (street name) of the thief, the name and DL# of the homeless man and the tapes showing the whole interaction including the face of the thief. The police wanted none of it. Wouldn't even look at it.

Last year a (probably) drunk driver hit my mother's house in south Tulsa in middle of the night and drove off. But they left  an oil stain leading to a nearby house to the garage.  They did over $15,000 in damage to the house. The cop that took the report wouldn't look at the stain or any of the damage, said that the detective would do that. The detective never called. When my mother finally got a hold of him over a week later, he said he wasn't going to do anything and the case was closed. A simple knock on the door probably would have led to an arrest.

And don't tell me TPD is overworked I know of specific TPD officers and detectives that spend a good deal of the working week just sitting at home with the radio on or traffic cops that once they write their quota of tickets they are done for the day.  They also make sure that if they are going to show up to court, say for a traffic stop, they are getting OT for it. I'm not saying all TPD is like this, but a lot is.

In contrast, in Jenks, my wife and I saw a woman steal gas, just drive off. We then went shopping at Reasors and when we came out the same woman was in her car trying to leave the store. I noticed a cop in the parking lot and tried to block her in her space and waive him down. It turned out he was not only there for her, but so were two other cop cars on the other side of the parking lot. For stolen gas. That would never have happened in Tulsa.

Most of TPD just doesn't care. Wilbur, you talk about morale, well, the morale for the citizens of Tulsa towards their police force is pretty low.  The most common interaction most people with TPD when they are the victim of a crime is one where the police don't give a crap. Why do we need to pay TPD officers $50,000 to fill out forms that no one will ever read? You can find plenty of people to scribble on forms for $10 an hour. And they won't feel entitled to drive a company car home each night.

[waterboy]

My limited interaction with the police has been similar.  My family's business discovered that an employee who had just resigned to go to work for a competitor had accessed our computer system without permission and stolen client information, a clear felony violation of Oklahoma's computer crime law.  We called the former employee and he admitted what he had done.  We recorded the telephone call.  We presented all this information to the police who were very nice to come out and take it but you could tell their attitude was less than enthusiastic.  There attitude seemed to be that this was not a "real" crime.  It has been a over a year--no prosecution. 

Boy, have I gotten an education in crime and deterrence the last decade. Here's a couple examples:
   -watched a thief following a UPS truck, park in my neighbors driveway and steal packages from his porch. Wrote down the tag, the model/make of car and a description of the thief. Police arrived, told me the car belonged to a recently released convict by that description but made no effort to arrest him or search for the car. I would had to have filed a report and pick him out of a lineup because he would simply allege someone else used his car. A difficult case to prosecute and the packages were insured. Thief happily continues career.

  -crazy drug user loses temper and sideswipes a friend of mine who is trying to get into his car after brief altercation. Severely damages car and breaks both legs of my friend, then drives off. Three witnesses, license tag number, name of assailant and description of car. No arrest and no warrant issued. Policeman says that's up to prosecutor. I'm seeing "leaving the scene of an accident", "assault with a deadly weapon" and perhaps more. A week later the investigator sends an e-mail to inquire if he wants to file a complaint!?

There is so much serious crime occurring that I believe the system is overwhelmed. The bottom line is that pursuing all but the most egregious, easily prosecuted crimes is not feasible. Especially if the miscreants are serious drug users or gang members. Feels like we're up feces creek to me.

[Wilbur]

After I vowed to myself over and over not to argue about police wages and take home cars on this forum any more, I can't believe we're still doing this (or, at lease I'm still doing this).

I love this city and love this police department.  But, citizens need to realize they get what they pay for.

Look at Miami PD in the 1970s, Houston PD in the 1980s, New Orleans PD in the 1990s, .....  I would truly hate to see this police department go the way these departments did because we continue to fall further and further behind in pay/benefits.  Tulsa has been at the bottom of the barrel for many years and it's only getting worse.  Our talent is going elsewhere.  Our hiring standards are getting lower.  I'm afraid we're heading into the same fate as these other agencies.

[waterboy]

I find it curious/funny/sad (depends on how you look at it) that our elected city officials can't figure out how to properly maintain the city's budget, and now they are turning to the FOP to cure their inabilities to manage money.

And, I don't understand how we criticize officers who choose to reside and raise their families outside the city of Tulsa, but put their lives on the line for the citizens of Tulsa.  Truly sad.

They are turning to everyone in city employ to cure their longstanding inability to manage a city that is beset with economic, philosophical and drug related turmoil. That is sad.

I put my life on the line for my family every day in Tulsa traffic, businesses and public places and I don't carry a gun, so please forego the self pity unless you feel it for all of us.

Is it so much to ask that city employees reside within our confines? How sad is that? This is not professional sports where a MInnesota Viking might live in Jenks but retain Minnesota loyalties. This is our hometown and it isn't unreasonable to expect that our TPD employees have more than just an employment stake in its protection. Or perhaps you think we ought to go a step farther and simply hire a professional private security force based out of state?

Wait a minute....no union problems....no self insurance problems...liability falls outside our jurisdiction. Might not be too bad.

[cannon_fodder]

***Due to my math error, I really used 10 miles.  I failed to address the fact that each officer drives his car TO work and from work.  Thus 20 miles represents round trip.  Or each officer driving an extra 10 miles to commute home in his Tulsa vehicle. * * *

How on earth did you come up with 397 cars go outside the city?

By reading:

A 2007 council study, spearheaded by Christiansen, showed that of the 777 police vehicles, 392 were being driven to residences outside the city.

But you are right, there are 392 vehicles going outside the city limits, not 397.  I apologize for that error.  The best evidence I have seen cited indicates 392 TPD Officers are driving city owned vehicles outside of Tulsa for commuter purposes.

Then, you jump to the conclusion they all live 20 miles away.  WOW!  Where does that figure come from?  As I reported here before, many officers drive across the line just into Broken Arrow to drive home, a shorter distance then driving their police car back to some police station.

***The figure I sued in the equation actually equates to 10 miles.

As for my 20 mile figure:  it comes from the total lack of any information available from the TPD on how far the vehicles are being driven.   When asked how many officers routinely broke the rule by living further outside of Tulsa than allowed - they were not able to give any indication and admitted they don't know.   Per the Tulsa Metro Chamber the average Tulsa commute time is 20 minutes.  Given that these Officers necessarily live in a different town than they work, I extrapolated that to mean 20 miles.  For some officers this is probably high, for others it is probably low.

At the end of a shift an officer may be closer to home than the precinct, but that would be an entirely random event (well, should be.  If I were free to range on my job I admit the odds are I would end up closer to my home by the end of the shift).   It is no more likely that the Officer is closer to home than the precinct than it is likely that he drives passed the precinct on his drive out of Tulsa to his home.   It is more likely that an officer is assigned to a precinct that has no relation to his non-Tulsa address (an officer assigned to Uniform Division North may live in Jenks, a South officer living in Collinsville).  Since they are more likely to expend fuel driving out of Tulsa than save it, the fuel savings argument doesn't apply in the aggregate (it may work for several officers, but not the whole).

If you remove the random points from the map that are outside the city limits of Tulsa, the aggregate commuter mileage in TPD cars would go down as the potential area for said mileage decreases AND the number of vehicles being used for this purpose also decreases.

Where are you going to park all those cars?  None of the three uniform divisions currently have enough parking.  So, lets spend how much building more parking lots.

If the perk is that important, before the next negotiating contract comes up they could purchase nice homes in Tulsa in which to park their Tulsa vehicles in front of.

And, if you don't believe increased moral results in a better employee, regardless of their occupation, then thank god you're not my boss!

Moral does equal better employees.  But that is not an argument for affording wages or benefits we can not afford.  I wish everyone could have a company car to commute with, but at the cost of 21 police officer's jobs it is a perk we really can't afford.


MH2010:

To get to the $150,000 number you would have to believe that each officer is driving just an extra 1.1 miles every day (150k/300 working days/.55 mileage/392 officers/2 each way).  I don't buy that.  

While it is true that for SOME Officers it saves time and money to return home after the shift - in the aggregate it adds mileage.  See above.

As for officers responding more quickly, that argument fails for two primary reasons:

#1) If the object was to ensure officers were able to respond more quickly, wouldn't a policy mandating residence inside the city be more likely to succeed?  Certainly a policy which discharges 21 officers in order to enable an officer living in Collinsville to respond faster is poorly thought out.

and #2)  I deal with police on a semi regular basis.  I've never interviewed or read a transcript of an officer that responded to an incident from home.  The occurrence of such an event is a rarity.  
- - -

At the end of the day it's simple for me:  we spend money allowing city assets to leave the city.  As a citizen of Tulsa, that doesn't make sense to me.  The costs outweigh the benefits, so think it should be changed.

[MH2010]

Okay swake, if u kno officers that do that, name them. If u are afraid to name them  on a public forum, private message me their names and I will have them investigated. They r making more work for the rest of us. If u don't know their names or won't name them then I will believe they don't exist or don't sit at home like u said.

As far as people helping on their way to and from work,  I am a tulsa police officer and I know it happens. It is not listed on reports because the officers that help aren't the one writing the reports, no reports are made (they assist or open charges r filed) or any number if other reasons.

As far as the cars go, if a study is done that gives a real value to the take home cars and it would save the jobs of the laid off officers then officers would give them up. However, as of today, no one can give a number or say for sure it would save their jobs or prevent further lay-offs. Until then officers will probably vote to keep the benefit for the 300 or so officers that use it.

[cannon_fodder]

And, I don't understand how we criticize officers who choose to reside and raise their families outside the city of Tulsa, but put their lives on the line for the citizens of Tulsa.  Truly sad.

Are delivery men, construction workers, and oil hands above criticism to?  Their jobs are more dangerous than yours is.  39 Tulsa Police Officers have died while on duty, 17 by the violence of others.  I my lifetime 2 Tulsa Police Officers were murdered.  Every death is a tragedy, but realistically speaking it isn't that hazardous of an occupation.

Actually, look at this way:  30 year murder rates (chances of death by the violence of another).

TPD:  ~750 officers * 30/2 murders = 1/11,250
Public: ~360K * 30/1740 murders = 1/6200

You are more likely to die from the violence of another as a citizen of Tulsa than as a police officer in Tulsa.  So lets not play that card and agree that all people are equal.  A job that puts you at risk is just that:  a job.  It does not exempt you from any level of criticism.

Sorry to go here, I respect your profession.  You deal with crap people in difficult situations as a career.  But pretending you are above criticism of your salary and benefits because you "put your life on the line" demanded a response.

and +1 to Swake.  Reality or not, the reputation of the TPS is one of filling out forms and nothing ever happening.  Post after post here indicates similar experiences.     I can't speak to the reality, but that's the common perception.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't disrespect police officers. My father is a retired Tulsa Police officer and a proud member of the FOP. I grew up with an officer and the job was too hard for me to ever consider it as a career. He had many scary instances, being shot at, having to arrest friends, being assaulted off-duty by a guy he had arrested before all come to mind.

This argument isn't about the job or the reputation of the Tulsa police. It is a budget issue.

Take-home vehicles for out-of-town officers is costing us so much that we have to lay-off other officers. Why won't the police union representatives recognize this?

I said it earlier in this thread, but need to repeat it. WE CAN'T AFFORD THE LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT WE WANT. We have a simple choice. We can hire back these police officers or let other policemen have a company perk that almost no other government employee has.    

[swake]

Okay swake, if u kno officers that do that, name them. If u are afraid to name them  on a public forum, private message me their names and I will have them investigated. They r making more work for the rest of us. If u don't know their names or won't name them then I will believe they don't exist or don't sit at home like u said.

As far as people helping on their way to and from work,  I am a tulsa police officer and I know it happens. It is not listed on reports because the officers that help aren't the one writing the reports, no reports are made (they assist or open charges r filed) or any number if other reasons.

As far as the cars go, if a study is done that gives a real value to the take home cars and it would save the jobs of the laid off officers then officers would give them up. However, as of today, no one can give a number or say for sure it would save their jobs or prevent further lay-offs. Until then officers will probably vote to keep the benefit for the 300 or so officers that use it.

There is no way I am naming crap. None of this is news to anyone on the force anyway.

[Conan71]

There is no way I am naming crap. None of this is news to anyone on the force anyway.

I'd say that's prolly a great personal and career move on your part.

[FOTD]

This will all pale in comparison to the rumors.....layoffs will turn into resignations.

[MDepr2007]

Think you've had bad service from TPD, wait until those desk sergeants hit the streets after 10 yrs or so off. I would think they'll be a little grumpy and short fused.

[rwarn17588]

This will all pale in comparison to the rumors.....layoffs will turn into resignations.

OK ... you've been teasing about this so-called rumor for weeks. Put up or shut up.

[rwarn17588]

Think you've had bad service from TPD, wait until those desk sergeants hit the streets after 10 yrs or so off. I would think they'll be a little grumpy and short fused.

Cry me a river.

Jeez Louise, the country is going through the worst recession in more than a quarter-century, and all I'm hearing is whining from cops about everything, including the layoffs.

Guess what? Darned near everyone is laying off workers these days. Police departments are not immune. Belts are tightening. Buck up.

And don't give me this sob story about how dangerous police work is. Being a police officer isn't even in the top 10 most dangerous jobs most years. Farming makes the top 10 every year and has for decades. You don't hear farmers breaking out sad violins about the hazards of their jobs. As I've said before, buck up.

[TUalum0982]

What is wrong with having TPD employees live within their community, pay property taxes to their community and support businesses within that community? Then the issue of where you park your patrol cars is moot and Tulsa reaps more benefit from our investment in the police force. More property taxes, more sales taxes and more visibility.

Whether its $150,000 or $1 1/2 million, now is not the time to argue over decisions made when the local economy was fat and happy. Pick your battles carefully boys. Your not going to win them all.

who says they dont?  Like I mentioned before, I plan on putting in my app for the academy.  I live just outside the city limits of Tulsa but still in Tulsa County.  I pay Tulsa County tax (almost 3,000 dollars a year) and I supoort local businesses in Tulsa.  Just because they live outside the city limits, doesnt mean they dont support the community.  That is a very naive thing to say.  And like MH2010 said, the drive from my house (outside city limits) to Riverside station is shorter then someone that lives at 111th and Sheridan (inside the city limits) and drives to Gilcrease.  The logic that "if you live in the city limits, you are closer to work" is flawed.