North Tulsa to Get Grocery Store

[YoungTulsan]

When we are talking about North Tulsa are we going by the literal definition of anything north of Admiral Pl., or more specifically the further north cluster of residences mostly around 46th to 66th, Cincinnati to Lewis?  The WHM at 62nd & North Peoria definitely serves that area regardless of whether it is Turley or Tulsa.    Another WHM at Pine & Peoria would be overkill.  Pine & Peoria is actually quite a haul for someone that lives at 56th & N Cincinnati where transportation may be an issue.  There are also several closed down former shopping center structures in the 56th & Peoria area that could be put to use if the market demand were there.

The real problem with this neighborhood isn't a lack of upscale shopping (and I believe WHM has the "no frills grocery" demand covered) - it is a lack of jobs.  You can't just bring in upscale shopping and hope that will solve the community's problem.  There is no where decent to work up there.  No office jobs of any kind.  A shopping center isn't going to thrive until there are people working at paying jobs nearby stopping off for something to eat or a stroll through the store on the way home.

Jobs first, then shopping centers.

[Gaspar]

When we are talking about North Tulsa are we going by the literal definition of anything north of Admiral Pl., or more specifically the further north cluster of residences mostly around 46th to 66th, Cincinnati to Lewis?  The WHM at 62nd & North Peoria definitely serves that area regardless of whether it is Turley or Tulsa.    Another WHM at Pine & Peoria would be overkill.  Pine & Peoria is actually quite a haul for someone that lives at 56th & N Cincinnati where transportation may be an issue.  There are also several closed down former shopping center structures in the 56th & Peoria area that could be put to use if the market demand were there.

The real problem with this neighborhood isn't a lack of upscale shopping (and I believe WHM has the "no frills grocery" demand covered) - it is a lack of jobs.  You can't just bring in upscale shopping and hope that will solve the community's problem.  There is no where decent to work up there.  No office jobs of any kind.  A shopping center isn't going to thrive until there are people working at paying jobs nearby stopping off for something to eat or a stroll through the store on the way home.

Jobs first, then shopping centers.

+10 
"Build it and they will come"  never works.

[swake]

Speaking of BS, lets keep things real here. Myths indeed. Those stores on Admiral and out east are not "north side" stores. Northsiders routinely bypassed them in favor of 15th & Lewis and Brookside grocery stores. They also ignored the store at Gilcrease and Edison which truly is north side. Whether it was because of the condition of the stores or the racial status of their shoppers is unclear, though I suspect many folks between Admiral and 21st (Southsiders by your designation Swake) also ignored those stores for the same reasons.

Then, comparing a robbery in a neighborhood reputed to be crime ridden vs a Brookside grocery store surrounded by upscale dense housing is pure bs.

Roscoe et al may be BS spin meisters, but you guys are in the race too.

1st and Lewis may not "technically" be the north side, but it's on the north side of 244 and certainly feels like the north side. The Save a Lot or whatever it's called at Pine and Lewis certainly IS north side. Just like Warehouse Market in Turley may not even technically be in Tulsa, but it also is north side. There are stores.

[TheArtist]

I don't buy the "no jobs in the area" thing.  Heck most of the people in Owasso and other further out places get to jobs. If some Mexican can get all the way up to Tulsa, not speaking the language, and then carpool 5 to a truck to south Tulsa to work,,, I dare say the locals could figure out a way to get to work. When I lived in some po-dunk little town in Arkansas I walked over 2 miles to my first job bussing tables at a local hotel restaurant early in the morning, then walked a mile to the next job washing dishes, then walked home after 10:00 at night,,, then got up in the morning and started it all over again. Come rain, snow, cold and hot.  Get a bike, get a scooter, hitch a ride with others.  Ya turn 18, ya get your donkey kicked out of the house and work your way up the ladder like everyone else lol.

As for grocery stores. I have said it before. I think the most likely scenario is to have smaller, old fashioned type, grocery stores in the area. If the city is going to be supporting anything, I would say helping to nurture a couple of small scale, pedestrian friendly developments (this is just the type of scenario that has worked in similar types of areas in other cities) would be better than trying to develop one, large, car oriented, suburban, strip mall type development that relies on trying to draw people in from a large radius for support.  They got those for all intents and purposes. If ya got a car, a couple of miles more isnt going to make a big difference.      

[YoungTulsan]

Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?

[dbacks fan]

RACIST!!! oh, sorry, couldn't help it.  Anyhow, the real comment I was going to make is that Turley isn't a township.  While outside of the Tulsa city limits, it is still in Tulsa county.  So spliting hairs, but it's not far from the real crime ridden area's of North Tulsa (places that even I worry about going into). 

One pop knot coming up.

I know that it's splitting hairs on Turley, but if I had my choice in that area I would take Turley over Pine and Peoria. Also, does the WHM there benefit some from Sperry and some of the people living around the Sperry area? A bit of a drive from Sperry to Skiatook or Owasso.

[waterboy]

+10  
"Build it and they will come"  never works.

Right. Like that Home Depot at 11th and Elgin that was only built because it was near an exit. No new residential nearby and most people thought they were crazy to locate downtown away from new growth. But they persevered cause they only locate near expressway exits. They figured they would at least get the north side stuff and builders. They were stunned at the business, especially lawn and garden. Ran the Ace Hardware on Harvard and the Burgess Hardware on SW Boulevard plum out of business (Oh, yeah, Sutherlands on Southwest Blvd also disappeared).

Then there was that Arena thingy, and all those other "build it and they will come enterprizes around Blue Dome.

[waterboy]

Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?

I think you're right YT. What you guys are missing is consumer behavior. They aren't buying in their own hood for two reasons.  It has too much Hispanic flavor to it AND the people with jobs are buying groceries on the way home from work or school. Since the jobs are farther south, near established grocery stores, that is where they are buying. If you work hourly you know that.

[waterboy]

1st and Lewis may not "technically" be the north side, but it's on the north side of 244 and certainly feels like the north side. The Save a Lot or whatever it's called at Pine and Lewis certainly IS north side. Just like Warehouse Market in Turley may not even technically be in Tulsa, but it also is north side. There are stores.

I'm not talking technically. Going to school at BTW is one thing, but you live in Jenks now. First and Lewis is a largely Hispanic neighborhood that I myself would feel uncomfortable shopping for groceries in. When you say "North" Tulsa, First and Lewis does not come to mind, nor east Tulsa at Admiral and Memorial or Turley.

I have to say, I'm not familiar with the SaveALot at Pine and Lewis. However, my brother lives just north of town near Gilcrease Hills. He can travel by expressway to 15th and Lewis as fast or faster than to Pine and Lewis. Easy decision.

[godboko71]

SaveALot is a joke crappy product at high prices both locations so it isn't a "crime" thing. I noticed more Mexican products then most "normal" stores but it isn't a bad thing because they have all the "normal" stuff too. The prices on pantry items are sightly more expensive then Warehouse Market but they are cheaper then Walmart Neighborhood Market, Food Pyramid, and Reasor's.

Long term I think he could help all his locations by re-branding the other stores Gateway, putting all signs in English and Spanish (Gateway is currently all English, the other locations are mostly in Spanish.) Launching a website and having weekly Sales/Deals like the other grocers. Logistically it might be smart to partner with Warehouse Market to increase both chains buying power and lowering prices (or maintaining them) at both chains.

[dsjeffries]

Also, does the WHM there benefit some from Sperry and some of the people living around the Sperry area? A bit of a drive from Sperry to Skiatook or Owasso.

Um, Sperry is literally four miles from Skiatook. Not much of a drive. It's also that distance from Turley, but I'd say most of Sperry's 900 residents shop in Skiatook for groceries. Just like the residents of Hominy, Avant, Ramona and much of Osage County.


And I think it's too soon to talk about closing Gateway. Business is slow and he's doing the right thing--getting himself in the paper and on the news. More talk, more business. Hopefully.

[swake]

Deeply impoverished neighborhoods need jobs close by, it isn't the same as Skip & Becky who commute to their $400k home in Owasso but have offices at Utica Place.   In the case of Mexicans, do the type of folk who hire Hispanic laborers even look for regular joes to help out?

One of the best things about all the new stuff going in downtown is that there are all sorts of new entry level jobs with close proximity to this area. Hopefully it will help with jobs.

[YoungTulsan]

One of the best things about all the new stuff going in downtown is that there are all sorts of new entry level jobs with close proximity to this area. Hopefully it will help with jobs.

Yes, it all works synergistically, but I don't see how you can build a grocery store as step #1 in the process like is being argued in North Tulsa.  Skilled (Office and factory) jobs are the starting point.  From there you get the service industry jobs that spring up around the thriving job sites.  The service industry jobs employ the lower class folks who seek employment in the immediate vicinity of their dwellings.   Soon the area reaches an economic critical mass and everyone starts to rise.

[dbacks fan]

Um, Sperry is literally four miles from Skiatook. Not much of a drive. It's also that distance from Turley, but I'd say most of Sperry's 900 residents shop in Skiatook for groceries. Just like the residents of Hominy, Avant, Ramona and much of Osage County.


And I think it's too soon to talk about closing Gateway. Business is slow and he's doing the right thing--getting himself in the paper and on the news. More talk, more business. Hopefully.

Foregive me, I have been gone for almost 12 years and looking at things on google earth may be two to three years old. I was just thinking of the area and the people that may go to WHM at 62nd north.

I share the hope that Gateway makes it, maybe they need to rethink their product line, and tailor it to meets the need of the market. (Padon the pun)

[dsjeffries]

Foregive me, I have been gone for almost 12 years and looking at things on google earth may be two to three years old. I was just thinking of the area and the people that may go to WHM at 62nd north.

Ha, well that's quite a while. Most people in the area drive to the Wal-Mart Supercenter in Skiatook now.

I think things will pan out for Gateway. Like I said, he's getting himself in front of cameras. In fact, because of this story (and my new proximity) I think I'll try it out next week.