Vision 2025...Part 2?

[Teatownclown]

Let's not lay this at the feet of the elite and any so-called billionaires (they seem never too close to the Chambermaids). The Chambers administrators are the one's who pinch this out.

[DTowner]

Actually, the "chicken in every pot" approach is why V-2025 passed in the first place.  It was carefully planned so that every demographic in each municipality got something which appealed to them, while Tulsa got the lion's share of the projects.

What really surprised me when the River Tax was put out as a county-wide vote, is this lesson seemed lost on the proponents of that plan as there was nothing really of value to voters in Collinsville, Owasso, and only weak attempts to show Sand Springs, BA, Jenks, and Bixby that there was going to be a real benefit to them.  They all seemed like outliers or afterthoughts in the plan.  The other failing of that vote was they did not have a real plan put together on what and where the money would be spent other than paying way more than the concrete plant off W. 21st was worth.  Not only that, they wouldn't even have the USACE feasibility and pre-permit studies done until after that election!

How ironic that the lesson of no concrete plans for the money was lost on this bunch after that election.  For being some of Tulsa's most influential people, they seem to be slow learners.

While the projects for surrounding towns helped sweeten the pot for V2025, I think the big projects were popular and probably would have passed on their own.  However, giving ever town a steak in teh outcome did not hurt.  But the key is the sweetner projects were thought out and based on those town's needs - the opposite of V2's approach.

I believe the River Project failed because it was premature (so soon after V2025 that the electorate had not yet seen its successes), incompletely thought out and confused with "The Channels."

[shadows]

It seem so quite on the creating the flush (2) fund of three quarters of a billion dollars for the elite to play monopoly with. 

Looking over  the resent post I cannot find if it is because some poster has ask for a duel and offered “swords or pistols”. 

We gave Saddam Hussein, when he was wearing the white hat, the plates to print the $100 bills.  We should ask Washington if they had any surplus plates and if so we could use them to reduce their printing debit.   We have plenty of paper and that is all that it takes to create our money. 

The river tax was defeated because many voters were aware of how unstable the river is, see the failure of comerical development and have seem its flow though the overburden of sand as is happing at present.                                                                                                                                     

[Hoss]

It seem so quite on the creating the flush (2) fund of three quarters of a billion dollars for the elite to play monopoly with. 

Looking over  the resent post I cannot find if it is because some poster has ask for a duel and offered "swords or pistols". 

We gave Saddam Hussein, when he was wearing the white hat, the plates to print the $100 bills.  We should ask Washington if they had any surplus plates and if so we could use them to reduce their printing debit.   We have plenty of paper and that is all that it takes to create our money. 

The river tax was defeated because many voters were aware of the how unstable the river is, see the failure of comerical development and have seem its flow though the overburden of sand as is happing at present.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Translator...someone find a translator?

[Townsend]

It seem so quite on the creating the flush (2) fund of three quarters of a billion dollars for the elite to play monopoly with. 

Looking over  the resent post I cannot find if it is because some poster has ask for a duel and offered "swords or pistols". 

We gave Saddam Hussein, when he was wearing the white hat, the plates to print the $100 bills.  We should ask Washington if they had any surplus plates and if so we could use them to reduce their printing debit.   We have plenty of paper and that is all that it takes to create our money. 

The river tax was defeated because many voters were aware of the how unstable the river is, see the failure of comerical development and have seem its flow though the overburden of sand as is happing at present.                                                                                                                                     

Please proof read your posts if you want to add to the conversation Shadows.

[shadows]

Translator...someone find a translator?

...

Have you tried one of the chartered school.   Seems the public schools have not made an improvement in the testing in the past three years.

[AquaMan]

Unstable river? Not sure what you mean here.

Very novel concept about "a overburden of sand". I guess that's the spin of not enough water in the river. Maybe we would have better luck with a bond issue that promised to reduce the sand in the river?   Truth is the river isn't as sandy as it used to be. That's one of the reasons the sand mining has declined over the years and moved further and further downstream.

[shadows]

Unstable river? Not sure what you mean here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

When the geologists took the scout troop on an excursion of the river they noted that Brookside was in the old river bed and the sand overburden was 17’ to the slate.  Two miles east and a mile south of the road to the old bridge, the river in the 75 years has meandered to the north hundreds of feet.  The five hundred year flood, which the corps had to open the gates or it would have breech the dirt filled Keystone Dam illustrates the river‘s power.  The river left its marks on how man cannot control nature but must adapt to its rules.     

[Hoss]

Unstable river? Not sure what you mean here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

When the geologists took the scout troop on an excursion of the river they noted that Brookside was in the old river bed and the sand overburden was 17' to the slate.  Two miles east and a mile south of the road to the old bridge, the river in the 75 years has meandered to the north hundreds of feet.  The five hundred year flood, which the corps had to open the gates or it would have breech the dirt filled Keystone Dam illustrates the river's power.  The river left its marks on how man cannot control nature but must adapt to its rules.    

And yet we have several lakes in the state that actually prove we CAN control nature.  One being the Keystone Dam you speak of.

[TeeDub]

And yet we have several lakes in the state that actually prove we CAN control nature.  One being the Keystone Dam you speak of.

As anyone that lived in the Tulsa area in 1984 will attest we can moderate nature, not control it.   

[AquaMan]

Unstable river? Not sure what you mean here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________

When the geologists took the scout troop on an excursion of the river they noted that Brookside was in the old river bed and the sand overburden was 17' to the slate.  Two miles east and a mile south of the road to the old bridge, the river in the 75 years has meandered to the north hundreds of feet.  The five hundred year flood, which the corps had to open the gates or it would have breech the dirt filled Keystone Dam illustrates the river's power.  The river left its marks on how man cannot control nature but must adapt to its rules.    

You learned a lot on your scout trip which must have been back near the beginning of scouting. Yes, the river has meandered several miles east and west in past history and the Brookside and Bixby areas are fertile earth and a good source of well water because of that. However, the scale of the forces at work during those meanderings are no longer present and the overburden is now quite an impediment to the river's meandering even without the Keystone Dam.

If it were only the Keystone Dam that protected us we would have more reason to worry about floods. Keystone is part of a chain of flow control dams that have succeeded in limiting flooding for about 6 decades. We have adapted to the river and controlled its destiny, but I agree, nature is always the winner. We merely tame the behavior of the beast, not change its nature.

[shadows]

And yet we have several lakes in the state that actually prove we CAN control nature.  One being the Keystone Dam you speak of.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Having seen the river over the flooding of 8 decades and followed flood plains in the recent years one must  come to the conclusion that in '84 the destruction would have been less severe if the Keystone Dam not been there. Being in the weather bureau for information, looked on their radar to see the storm moving to the northwest I begin eavesdropping on their conversation. they were talking about telling the Corps to open the gates as Keystone could not hold that amount of water that was headed toward it.  The corps waited several hours before opening the gates creating the flood of '84. 
The Keystone capacity, by their record, has a life span whereas it becomes less efficient each day as from settlement entering into the lake. 

Some one wrote "You cannot dam a flowing river"
                          " Or tell it where to flow"
                          "  It will flow on forever"
                          "  Best to show it where to go"


                         

[RecycleMichael]

The Arkansas river flood was 1986, not 1984.

[shadows]

The Arkansas river flood was 1986, not 1984.
________________________________________________________________________________________

Thank you for the correction.  Was using the '84 posted by previous poster and not looking at the record.  There have been so many major floods on the Arkansas, Bird  Creek, Mingo, etc in the last century it is hard to keep up with them.     

[TeeDub]

The Arkansas river flood was 1986, not 1984.

You should be careful using terms like "not".    Was it really that important to correct me that you didn't even bother to look and see if you were right?

The 1984 Memorial Day Flood killed 14, injured 288, damaged or destroyed nearly 7,000 buildings, and left $180 million in damages ($257 million in 1994 dollars). Mingo Creek alone accounted for $125 million of the damages.

http://www.cityoftulsa.org/city-services/flood-control/flooding-history.aspx