Vision 2025...Part 2?

[TulsaRufnex]

I would support a reasonable soccer stadium proposal in the next round of projects.

Soccer is big money for many families. I am going to spend a couple thousand this year alone on my two kids playing competitive soccer. We will travel to Texas, Missouri, Kansas and Arkansas with dozens of other families and stay in hotels, eat in restaurants, etc. There are hundreds of families in Tulsa doing the same thing.

Tulsa youth soccer dominates the region. We have numerous teams and many good coaches all making an nice extra income after school.

I think a professional soccer team would do very well here. My family would buy season tickets and I know many other families who would also purchase tickets.

I wasn't living in Tulsa at the time, but remember thinking I probably would have voted against the Tulsa Project because it seemed like a hodge-podge of half baked ideas.
I wonder if that's why Vision2 was short on some of the "quality of life" specifics... bold ideas can and will be used against you...

A few Tulsa lawyers got together in the 70s because their kids were playing soccer, they tried to put together an exhibition game, then another, then finally a game at Skelly Stadium that drew over 11k which got the attention of league offices.....

I was hoping the 2003 exhibition game that drew 14k here was going to be enough to put a 22,500 seat soccer stadium into the Vision 2025 proposal.
The opportunity to get MLS was there for the taking, but the detractors here decided that "soccer-specific stadium" meant the only sport that could be played on the field was soccer... then I hoped against hope that part of the plans for downsizing Skelly Stadium would be to widen the sidelines to satisfy FIFA and MLS standards, but that didn't happen either...

I wonder what constitutes a "reasonable soccer stadium" proposal these days?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4zyjLyBp64[/youtube]

[DowntownDan]

I would think a soccer stadium could be built to look nice, but not too fancy, for a reasonable price if we could get a soccer franchise in town.  In my opinion, the best plan for it would be downtown, with a max of 20,000 permanent seats.  Make it convertable for outdoor concerts and festivals.  And I think it would be perfect for the City of Tulsa to sponsor a TPS football game of the week and have a high school football game played there every Friday night in the fall.  That would maximize its usefulness.  I think flexibility in construction would be key.  It needs to be usable for more than just soccer but still needs to be nice looking while being cost-effective.  Smart planning can accomplish this.

[carltonplace]

Event structures certainly do have value because they intermittently bring larger crowds to an area and hopefully some members of those crowds will visit local businesses before and after said event. If the structure is smartly designed it can have multiple uses beyond its primary function.

I'm not against another event center at all downtown...we've seen success from the stadiums recently built in downtown.

But since I am a proximate denizen of downtown what I really want to see is retail. There are enough like me (and more coming) to support urban retail that includes a mix of local shops and national chains as well as regional draws.

[Conan71]

The first one (1997 - Tulsa Project) included a 5,000 seat soccer/track & field stadium as well as the natatorium.  If we built the natatorium, Tulsans could have seen the likes of Michael Phelps competing here prior to the Olympics (2000, 2004, 2008, 2012).... The idea, or at least a part of it, was to imitate and compete with the success of cities like Indianapolis in attracting Olympic trials, collegiate championships, etc. that would breathe some economic life into downtown.

The second one (2000 - It's Tulsa Time) only included the arena and failed by a closer margin.

What Tulsa DID do in 1993 was expand Drillers+Stadium to a capacity of 10,963 in an effort to attract AAA baseball to town.

Using 20/20 hindsight, the expansion of Drillers Stadium was a bad idea while a 5,000 seat soccer/track & field stadium could have been hosting dozens and dozens of sporting events on the east side of downtown every year in the past decade-plus... our best ideas for that part of downtown these days seems to involve building a handful of townhomes, converting an ugly powder blue mid-century auto dealership into "loft-style" apts, moving a church downtown from Brookside, and moving Tulsa Opera HQ into an old fire station...

Color me un-impressed.

Did the city or county put the money into the Driller's expansion, Ruf?  I didn't even remember they had done this until you mentioned it.

[Hoss]

Did the city or county put the money into the Driller's expansion, Ruf?  I didn't even remember they had done this until you mentioned it.

I remember them doing that right after I moved back from Texas.  Like you I don't remember how it was done...I might try and do a Tulsa World archive search to see what it turns up.

[Hoss]

Reading the articles, it appears that no public monies were used in upgrading Driller Stadium.  That doesn't make it untrue...I just haven't found it yet.  I'm back to 1991 right now.

[TheArtist]

Perhaps a stadium just north of downtown, and the ballpark, on the OSU Tulsa campus.  There is a vacant field there where I already see people playing soccer on occasion.  Could perhaps be shared with a local team and OSU Tulsa and or NSU Tulsa, and even TCC as well, heck, even some of the downtown churches.  Could have a lot more potential users and usage there while also not taking up any space within the downtown loop, but for all intents and purposes still be "downtown" and within easy walking distance of Greenwood and the Blue Dome districts etc.

[TulsaRufnex]

Perhaps a stadium just north of downtown, and the ballpark, on the OSU Tulsa campus.  There is a vacant field there where I already see people playing soccer on occasion.  Could perhaps be shared with a local team and OSU Tulsa and or NSU Tulsa, and even TCC as well, heck, even some of the downtown churches.  Could have a lot more potential users and usage there while also not taking up any space within the downtown loop, but for all intents and purposes still be "downtown" and within easy walking distance of Greenwood and the Blue Dome districts etc.

I'm not sure what site you're suggesting, but if it's the Evans fintube site, that is not at all within "easy walking distance" of Blue Dome or Brady.  You'd have to walk across most of the OSU-Tulsa campus just to get to the closest place to eat (Fat Guys?).  I don't know what use OSU-Tulsa, NSU-Tulsa or TCC would have for the playing field inside any proposed stadium since none of those schools have collegiate sports programs, let alone soccer... and since both Major League Soccer and the North American Soccer League have seasons that start in late spring and don't end until late fall, any "shared parking" with a commuter school like OSU-Tulsa could prove problematic.  There may be some perfectly good reasons to build a stadium north of downtown, but, IMO, "urban walkability" isn't one of them.

Unless members of the Kaiser or Rooney families have something in the works that nobody in Tulsa or in MLS offices have told us about, Tulsa has ZERO chance at getting a Major League Soccer team at this time or in the foreseeable future.  Twenty years ago, Francis Rooney, Steve Turnbo and Charlie Mitchell were organizers for Tulsa's effort when we were a finalist for a league-owned MLS team.  Ten years ago, MLS was in a much weaker position and Tulsa had a powerful advocate in Lamar Hunt and we nearly got the Kansas City team to relocate here.  Mayor LaFortune and company were pursued in the spring/summer of 2002 by MLS, not the other way around.  The more years that pass, the more the old Tulsa Roughnecks become a distant memory...

MLS certainly no longer needs and probably has no desire for a team in Tulsa anymore.  

If somebody's serious about eventually getting a team, I would humbly suggest using an existing venue (the old ballpark, the new ballpark, Chapman Stadium).  The league one level below MLS really wants to have a team here.  http://nasl.com They have a retro marketing league brand (see my avatar) with some teams using their old nicknames from the 70s/80s-- so a Tulsa Roughnecks team would fit in well with the Tampa Bay Rowdies, Ft. Lauderdale Strikers, and the newly rebranded New York Cosmos... former teams in the league have moved up to MLS (Seattle Sounders, Portland Timbers, Vancouver Whitecaps).

My opinion for a "reasonable soccer stadium proposal in the next round of projects" would work something like this:

1.  Local ownership buys an NASL franchise for Spring 2014.
2.  The team plays at the old ballpark, the new ballpark, Chapman Stadium or some combination of venues.
3.  With a front office in place and impressive fan support (for this league, it'd be somewhere between 5k and 8k per game), the franchise lobbies for a multi-use stadium that could involve relatively cheap renovations to the old Drillers Stadium, a mostly new or updated stadium to replace the dilapidated stands/surface parking at the horsetrack, or a more ambitious mixed-use development (west bank?) depending on what is most financially reasonable, desirable, and politically feasible.
4.  Partner with other organizations, whether that is another local like the semi-pro football team, the rugby club, youth soccer, TPS or even the Tulsa Children's Museum to come up with something that appeals to a broader base of the public...
5.  Offer a flexible project in phases, so that if 10-15 years from now, Tulsa actually has a chance at MLS, the stadium is expandable.

[TulsaRufnex]

I would think a soccer stadium could be built to look nice, but not too fancy, for a reasonable price if we could get a soccer franchise in town.  In my opinion, the best plan for it would be downtown, with a max of 20,000 permanent seats.  Make it convertable for outdoor concerts and festivals.  And I think it would be perfect for the City of Tulsa to sponsor a TPS football game of the week and have a high school football game played there every Friday night in the fall.  That would maximize its usefulness.  I think flexibility in construction would be key.  It needs to be usable for more than just soccer but still needs to be nice looking while being cost-effective.  Smart planning can accomplish this.

I agree with most of that... but how many sites still exist downtown?

I've regarded the "east end" as more of a potential extension of "entertainment district" than urban neighborhood.
Which is why the superblock just north of Home Depot made more sense to me for a stadium location, especially as a bookend opposite the ballpark with the Blue Dome district in-between.
Last I heard, All Souls hadn't yet started their building fund which means it'd be at least 3 years before we have another church to add to the downtown collection.  

[TulsaRufnex]

Indianapolis Business Journal Features the Movement to Bring Pro Soccer to Indianapolis
http://brickyardbattalion.com/2012/11/17/indianapolis-business-journal-features-the-movement-to-bring-pro-soccer-to-indianapolis/

If the effort is successful, the Indianapolis team would be the 12th in the North American Soccer League, Wilt said. The group’s plan calls for playing in an existing facility for the first few years, then building an 8,000- to 10,000-seat soccer-specific venue, possibly downtown.

The temporary venues under consideration include Lucas Oil Stadium, Michael A. Carroll Track & Soccer Stadium at IUPUI, Kuntz Memorial Stadium on West 16th Street, Butler Bowl, and Grant Park in Westfield.

Season tickets for 15 home games would be in the $100 to $350 range, while single-game tickets would likely be between $10 and $28, Wilt said. The NASL season runs from March to November.

Eventually, the group would like its venue expandable to 20,000 seats and would seek a franchise in Major League Soccer, Wilt said.

“Having an MLS team in Indianapolis is not beyond reason,” said Wilt, a Milwaukee resident. “There’s an appetite for soccer in Indianapolis that wasn’t there 10 or even five years ago.”

[Teatownclown]

States Sweeten Jet Makers' Pot
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324339204578171173872412696.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

Some opponents have had recent success. Last month, voters in Tulsa, Okla., rejected a proposal to allocate almost $400 million in public funds for aerospace incentives and local infrastructure development that would have been raised by extending an existing sales tax in Tulsa County. Critics said the proposal was poorly planned and wasteful.

and...

Most of the Boeing jobs in Kansas are moving to Oklahoma and Texas, which offer millions of dollars in state and local incentives for aerospace employers. Oklahoma Gov. Mary Fallin, a Republican, says the state provides a $5,000 annual tax credit to newly hired engineers for five years and up to $12,500 per year in tax credits to companies for each new engineer's first five years of employment.

This year, Tulsa city officials, looking to expand their local aerospace industry and facing a potential long-term contraction of an American Airlines maintenance facility, whose buildings are owned by the city, proposed the funding package voters rejected last month. City Councilor G.T. Bynum, a Republican who campaigned against the plan, said it was motivated less by business logic than "fear of not getting re-elected, fear of being in office when a company leaves town."

BUT!

A Boeing spokesman said its "facilities decisions are based on fundamental business principles and the rigorous evaluation of a balanced set of considerations specific to the work."

[heironymouspasparagus]

States Sweeten Jet Makers' Pot
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324339204578171173872412696.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

and...

BUT!

Wasn't it Boeing that moved out a few years ago by selling off what is now Spirit Aerosystems...??  Nice little gig they got going there....move in, get paid, move out, move back in, get paid again.  Not that's the 'job' to have - quit, get paid to get 'hired' again, quit, get paid to get 'hired' again... I love that idea!!!!

[Townsend]

City-County Compromise in the Works?

http://kwgs.com/post/city-county-compromise-works

The Tulsa City Council discusses a possible capital improvement Compromise with Tulsa County over the 'four-to-fix the county' sales tax. The city wants the dollars as part of a capital project. The county wants monies for a Juvenile Justice Center. City Councilor Karen Gilbert likes the idea of giving the county five million toward its project.

Others on the council, like Jack Henderson,  say it is too late to make changes in the Tulsa plan, which is expected to go to voters in November and has already been the subject of public meetings.

[TheArtist]

  What is on the ballot in November is in no way a Vision 2025 plan btw.   It's a staggering disaster that will fail.  Who came up with this anyway?  Whoever it was needs to be voted out of office, and then run out of town imho.

[swake]

 What is on the ballot in November is in no way a Vision 2025 plan btw.   It's a staggering disaster that will fail.  Who came up with this anyway?  Whoever it was needs to be voted out of office, and then run out of town imho.

It seems like a decent plan to me, what exactly do you dislike about it? Worlds better than that Vision2 mess Dewey backed.