NEW DOWNTOWN MIXED-USE DEVELOPMENT IN THE WORKS

[sgrizzle]

In some units you can add walls easily and some are more difficult. I have no problem adding walls but I think in many of the Enterprise building floorplans it is very hard to effectively divide the space. My drawings above were showing where I could add walls and divide the space if the fixed amenities were moved. I also hold firm that anything over 1200sqft should be 1.5 or 2 baths to allow for families or for roommates.

[dsjeffries]

You cant make a wall of some sort?  Reminds me of people who are looking at buying houses and go into one and go "Oh, no! this house wont do at all, the dining room walls are red and I hate red"   I want to yell at the tv and say... Its just paint! Paint the danged walls! lol  And when your renting, you cant tear down a wall if you want the space open, but there are a dozen different ways you can easily create a wall if there isnt one.  

But all in all, I think his plans show a nice variety of offerings.  Some units are open, some have walls.  And in a lot of them you could quite easily switch the bedroom with the living on your own. Though it would be nice to have the bathrooms open into the bedroom.

There's a huge difference between paint and walls. One does not drastically affect the way you live; the other does. You make it sound too easy. "Just add a wall here, a door here and some electrical outlets here". It doesn't exactly work that way in apartments. I'm not talking about arranging tri-fold partitions or changing screens. I want walls. Good ol' stud and sheet rock walls. And doors.

And I agree with grizz in that the way the apartments are currently laid out would make it very difficult to divide the living spaces. I just hope they don't put all their hopes on people who want 'true lofts', because for every one of those people, there are 10 like myself who want a bedroom with walls. Provide a mix of both and it would appease my concerns... to me, it's like only investing in one company. Too risky on the business side of it.

[sgrizzle]

FYI, I quick check of TribuneLofts.com shows they are almost completely occupied.

[sgrizzle]

Mayo 420 opens in April and has walls in their units:
http://www.mayo420.com/floorplans.html

[TheArtist]

Mayo 420 opens in April and has walls in their units:
http://www.mayo420.com/floorplans.html

There ya go dsjeffries... walls.  And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.

Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.

[swake]

There ya go dsjeffries... walls.  And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.

Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.

Then if all those projects have walls, it might be good for this one to have no/fewer walls as a point of differentiation. We have few true lofts in Tulsa, loft projects generally don't have many walls, if they did they would be apartments.

[Gaspar]

I've seen the "no wall thing" done very well, but it becomes the responsibility of the tenant.  It's a trendy fad.

9 times out of 10 it will be done poorly, or not done at all.  Over time tenants will explore new ways of breaking down the space.

Here's where the danger lies. . .Your tenants will have far more power in marketing your product than you do.  There will be several staged units that prospective tenants can look at, and I'm sure that these will be done by a professional decorator.  However; As units lease, more people will visit tenant apartments (dinners, social events, family gatherings etc.) than will see the staged units.  Most of these units will do a poor job of breaking up the space.  Some will hang curtains, some will place odd partitions, and some will do absolutely nothing but throw down a couch.   

Because you have given "control" of the space to the tenant, you are at the mercy of their sense of style.  It's good to give people creative freedom over their living space, but you ultimately have to live with the image of the 12 foot long faux leopard skin curtain burned into the minds of your visitors.

Walls give structure and say "hang mirror here," and "put plant over here."  They give you the ability as an owner to have some say in the design quality of your development.  They also give you, and the tenant,  control over low frequency sound, light, and temperature. 

An architect will probably push the no-wall design because that's what's popular in the trade rags.  I'm not sure how it will affect leasing.  I would talk to the Trib guys and others to find out what units took the longest to lease and how fast those tenants turn over.

[TheArtist]

"Trendy fad"? Well its one looooooong lasting fad that has gone on for decades and decades (seen some great Art Deco era, open plan apartments  ). Centuries in some countries (gotta love that Asian design).

9 times out of 10, apartments WITH walls are done poorly lol.  If the way someone elses decorating/design skills determined which place I chose, I wouldnt have bought my house lol. You should have seen what it looked like before.  Having walls doesnt stop ugly, bad design choices lol. I have been in plenty of apartments in buildings downtown that look like crap design/decorating wise and that wasnt what would have given me pause from ever considering the property.  I would just think.... wow these people couldnt decorate their way out of a paper bag.  However, I have been in many a small apartment downtown and thought to myself... If only that wall wasnt there this could have been a much nicer and more open space.

Not saying that even the majority of apartments downtown should be without walls. but can only say that if I were to choose living in a small, urban space, I would like the option of having no walls in some of the areas so that I could create the space I wanted. And I think there are a lot of other people like me, and just as many dont think there are enough living options period downtown, there are comparatively even fewer, open space floor plans to choose from.

[BKDotCom]

These are efficiency apartments...
by definition:  no walls.

the apartments in that iconic University Club tower:  no walls

[dsjeffries]

There ya go dsjeffries... walls.  And from what I can tell; the Mayo Hotel Lofts have walls, the Philtower Lofts have walls, the Uptown Renaissance Apts have walls, the Central Park Condos have walls, many of the Tribune Lofts have walls, some of the apts in this building have walls, and I suspect many more places that I havent listed also have walls, and many that will be built in the future will also have walls.

Not sure where your getting this notion that there arent a lot of apartments around with walls? Even if your "90% of people want walls" is correct, there still seems to not be enough without walls for those who would want that option.

Actually, artist, the Mayo Hotel Lofts don't have walls. However, they have arranged the spaces very well so that the bedroom is still distinct from the rest of the space. There are SOME units that have walls (the larger ones) but the majority of them do not. Most of the Philtower Lofts also do not have walls. Some have partial walls. Most of the Mayo 420 Building isn't built out, either--they have partial walls and no doors. Something Philtower, Mayo and Tribune have in common? High rent. So maybe I should have been more specific. There are very few affordable places downtown that have walls. Average price of Philtower, Mayo and Tribune are all over $1000/mo. Renaissance is close to that, as well. For YPs like myself who are just starting out, and who want to live downtown, what are our options? We're automatically priced out of most apartments/lofts downtown. If we want walls? Better look somewhere else?

I'm not saying he should build out every single unit, but if these (and the Detroit Lofts) are our best hopes for "affordable" housing, there needs to be the option of having real walls.

And whether or not you think open lofts are a fad (and they are), it's not a "decorating issue" as you put it. Walls are not decoration. It's not an issue of dust collectors, bad paint or cheap wallpaper. And you own your house. Apartments in Tulsa are usually rented. That alone is a huge difference. If I bought a house without walls, it would be a different issue, because I could do whatever I wanted to with it. You can't do that in apartments.

[Gaspar]

"Trendy fad"? Well its one looooooong lasting fad that has gone on for decades and decades (seen some great Art Deco era, open plan apartments  ). Centuries in some countries (gotta love that Asian design).

Sure, like everything else style related it is cyclical.  The pendulum swings constantly in our definition of style.  Fads don't die, they just sleep.  Form changes frequently, but function lasts. 

Being able to have a nice cool quiet sleeping area, with a style that is unique to other more active living spaces serves a set of functions that is important to people.  Sure there are ways to do this with open spaces, but the invention of the door has never gone out of style. 

[TheArtist]

Sure, like everything else style related it is cyclical.  The pendulum swings constantly in our definition of style.  Fads don't die, they just sleep.  Form changes frequently, but function lasts.  

Being able to have a nice cool quiet sleeping area, with a style that is unique to other more active living spaces serves a set of functions that is important to people.  Sure there are ways to do this with open spaces, but the invention of the door has never gone out of style.  

Well of course "the door has never gone out of style", nor has the open floor plan. Its not one or the other exclusively, period, if we do one we cant do the other.  You can have any style be either open plan or closed.  From Egyptian and Roman, to Asian and Indian, French, Italian, to Art Deco and Contemporary, past present and future.

I love the door lol, but there are many instances where I would like to have, and would even prefer, an open floor plan. Or at least want to have the option.  If you have walls in a tiny apartment, you cant tear them down. No choice or option there. But if you dont have walls, you at least then HAVE the option to do as you wish. Not having walls doesnt preclude having a private room, or a room that looks distinct from the rest of the place. You can make it as open and private as you wish, as similar or distinct as you wish.  Its your choice. You have a blank canvas upon which you can let your imagination soar.  Block it off as much as you want, keep it as open as you want.  You can still make a wall, but you can make it out of anything you want. Solid, see through, little of both, one door, two doors, door on the left, door on the right, heck you can make a wall that is nothing but doors lol.  Dream away and have fun with it. Without the wall, you have a whole lot more choices and options. Including having a wall with a door.  lol.


And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here.  Small apartment living. I doubt many of us would be able to afford all the space we would like in an urban/highrise setting. I know I couldnt.  Space is going to be at a premium for most of us and every bit will count. And for those specifically looking for  "affordable" living,,, they will likely be in spaces that will be much smaller than they would prefer. Thats why you see people living in one room apartments.  I dont think people WANT to live that way, but its the best they can get. Same with small one bedroom and two bedroom apartments.   You will want to use every trick in the book to try and make your "smaller than you would like" space; look, feel, and function like a larger space.  Having no wall between a bedroom and the living area, allows you the ability to make the space you do have; look, feel, and live larger. .

Here is an efficiency apartment where they dont have a wall or even a divider between the bedroom, living room, and dining area.  I cant imagine what a space like that would be like with walls and doors separating the rooms.  It would feel microscopic.  This way the living space feels larger.


Here is the classic, kitchen, dining combo open to the living space.


If you want to divide the bedroom from the living in a small, open plan apartment space there are pleeeenty of ideas and ways to do that.
The handy dandy wall of shelves for instance, can be as open or closed off as you like.

Very closed off, could even add a door if you wanted. With an open floor plan...you have the option and choice.


Entertainment system, could have shelves on the other side.  With an open floor plan...you have the option and choice.


Little more open, could use drapery behind the shelves,,, if you wanted.


If this were the bedroom side, imagine a desk in the middle, or spread further apart with the bed in the middle.


An even more open, bookcase divider wall.


Here you can see a double sided approach with curtain in the middle. I have seen stuff like this at Ikea for dirt cheap.


Some other examples...




One neat thing I have seen done in a small bedroom space is to have a wall of shelving/closet space, a desk or whatever combo you want, and then  have drapery hanging over the face of those. The bed can be put right up against that so that it looks like a wall of drapes behind your bed. You can leave the shelving open above the bed or hang a mirror or picture over the drapery right over the bed and have that be storage that you rarely get into. That way you can have your closet or shelf and desk space be as messy as you like, but then draw the drapery over them and it looks like a wall of drapes. You can even have this set up be the "back" of the wall dividing the living area from the bedroom and the drapery can go all the way to the wall as a doorway.

If you have a small, urban, apartment and want to make the space look and live larger, with an open plan you have the option to keep it as open and large/multi-purpose as you want, or make each space be as closed off and distinct as you want.  let your imagination run wild.  With an open floor plan, doesnt have to be open, doesnt have to be closed off,,, you have more options, more choices, more potential.  Whats not to love with more? lol

[dsjeffries]

Well of course "the door has never gone out of style", nor has the open floor plan. Its not one or the other exclusively, period, if we do one we cant do the other.  You can have any style be either open plan or closed.  From Egyptian and Roman, to Asian and Indian, French, Italian, to Art Deco and Contemporary, past present and future.

Again, you're making this a style issue. It's not a style issue.

And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here.  Small apartment living.

Actually, we're not talking about teeny-tiny apartments. Mayo, Tribune, Philtower, etc all have rather large floorplans. 760 sq ft is the smallest floorplan in the Mayo, and there are only a few that small. The rest are 1,000 and up. Many of the units in Philtower reach up to 1,800 sq ft. The picture below is not representative of any of the units in any of these buildings or the Enterprise, for that matter. There are some small apartments on Cherry Street that would fit this picture, but this isn't what we're facing or talking about here. According to Will, the units in the Enterprise will be roughly 840, 1180 and 1650 square feet. That's not exactly micro-living, either.

[TheArtist]

Again, you're making this a style issue. It's not a style issue.

Actually, we're not talking about teeny-tiny apartments. Mayo, Tribune, Philtower, etc all have rather large floorplans. 760 sq ft is the smallest floorplan in the Mayo, and there are only a few that small. The rest are 1,000 and up. Many of the units in Philtower reach up to 1,800 sq ft. The picture below is not representative of any of the units in any of these buildings or the Enterprise, for that matter. There are some small apartments on Cherry Street that would fit this picture, but this isn't what we're facing or talking about here. According to Will, the units in the Enterprise will be roughly 840, 1180 and 1650 square feet. That's not exactly micro-living, either.

Was mentioning style because of the post I had quoted, which wasnt one of yours.


I knew I should have reiterated or reworded some of my points better.  And you just had to focus on that one pic lol. It was meant to be an example of how a completely open room can work, whether that room be the size in the pic, or twice that size.  

One of the points I was trying to make in what I wrote was...No matter what size apartment you get in a desirable urban area, and in a highrise apt., its likely going to be smaller than a similarly priced house or apartment in other areas. I think I am cramped in my 2,000 sq ft plus house and have done all kinds of things to make it look and feel larger, including knocking out walls, raising ceilings, and taking out doors.  Urban living, especially highrise urban living, will cost me even more and though you may not think 1100 sq ft is micro,,, its gonna feel REALLY small compared to what I am used to and feel I need.   In other words If your used to having a certain amount of square feet and number of bedrooms in a typical suburban context, house or apartment, and then on the same budget move to an urban highrise type unit,,,, your likely to end up downsizing and trying to figure out ways to maximize your space. Whether that space is 700 sq ft or 2,000 sq ft, its gonna be smaller and likely feel cramped. (Just met with an old client who is having some hard times in this economy and is having to downsize to a 4,000 sq foot "little cottage" as she describes it lol.)  Highrise urban living often means your going to have less space per your budget than you might want or need.


The other point is that no matter what size the unit, having a more open floor plan (doesnt have to be completely open or every bedroom open), allows for more flexibility and options. You can even close off the open space if you want.  But the choice is there.

[dsjeffries]

I knew I should have reiterated or reworded some of my points better.  And you just had to focus on that one pic lol. It was meant to be an example of how a completely open room can work, whether that room be the size in the pic, or twice that size.

But that's not what you said at all--you specifically said "And lets remember what we are mainly talking about here.  Small apartment living."

One of the points I was trying to make in what I wrote was...No matter what size apartment you get in a desirable urban area, and in a highrise apt., its likely going to be smaller than a similarly priced house or apartment in other areas. I think I am cramped in my 2,000 sq ft plus house and have done all kinds of things to make it look and feel larger, including knocking out walls, raising ceilings, and taking out doors.  Urban living, especially highrise urban living, will cost me even more and though you may not think 1100 sq ft is micro,,, its gonna feel REALLY small compared to what I am used to and feel I need.   In other words If your used to having a certain amount of square feet and number of bedrooms in a typical suburban context, house or apartment, and then on the same budget move to an urban highrise type unit,,,, your likely to end up downsizing and trying to figure out ways to maximize your space. Whether that space is 700 sq ft or 2,000 sq ft, its gonna be smaller and likely feel cramped. (Just met with an old client who is having some hard times in this economy and is having to downsize to a 4,000 sq foot "little cottage" as she describes it lol.)  Highrise urban living often means your going to have less space per your budget than you might want or need.

And we're not talking about the difference in prices and sizes between suburban houses and urban apartments (or about someone downsizing and the pain associated with shedding 'stuff'). We're talking about walls that keep one's bedroom separate from other living space.

Having a majority of units without bedroom walls might seem like a good idea in theory, and for now, but wait 10 or 20 years. Does there need to be that option? Yes. Does it need to be 85% of the available units? No.