Rush Limbaugh HEARTS status quo healthcare

[nathanm]

So is it any mystery that they wanted to know his payment information?  I can tell you from my personal experience working in credit and collections for several years that it's not just high unemployment which causes such a high charge off rate in the medical industry, though it's not helping these days.  You bet there are people who cannot pay for healthcare.  That's what Medicaid and programs like Sooner Care are for.  However, there is a class of people who simply think there should be absolutely zero cost to their healthcare and refuse to pay a penny out of pocket for it, even when their insurance company is providing the majority of their care costs. 

I certainly realize there are people who need healthcare through no fault or neglect of their own and they wind up in a bind.  There are far worse things in this world than bankruptcy (which is an option if someone cannot pay their medical bills), like being paralyzed for life by an abdominal aneurysm, killed by a heart attack, etc.  Your primary residence is exempt in a bankruptcy as is your car (so long as they are paid for or if you reaffirm with your lender).  They will not throw you in prison for filing bankruptcy or simply stiffing a medical provider.  There are many "medical bankruptcies" which also include things like a mortgage on a lake house, a boat, an RV, credit cards used for many things other than medical costs.

The fact is, we are guaranteed no more of a right to free health care than we are free food or a free car by the Constitution.

I was simply refuting the contention that payment doesn't come up initially upon arrival at the ER. It certainly gets discussed, and rather early on.

And FWIW, as it stands currently, if you're a single not-elderly not-disabled male (or childless female), SoonerCare/Medicaid has nothing for you. No matter how destitute you are, you're on the hook. The worst part is that it makes it harder (and more expensive) to get housing, a job, insurance, and many other things these days when you have collections bringing down your credit score. No matter how responsible you've been, if you're poor and can't afford private insurance and work for a company that either doesn't provide it at all or doesn't subsidize the group insurance, you'll be having a bad time when an uninsured driver hits you and injures you, or you get food poisoning from whatever restaurant or you just end up with a spontaneous pneumothorax despite being a relatively healthy nonsmoker.

The current system ruins people's lives in an unavoidable way (aside from being rich). That's not OK to me. I'm not sure what should be done about it, but surely there's a better system than what we're doing now.

[Conan71]

I was simply refuting the contention that payment doesn't come up initially upon arrival at the ER. It certainly gets discussed, and rather early on.

And FWIW, as it stands currently, if you're a single not-elderly not-disabled male (or childless female), SoonerCare/Medicaid has nothing for you. No matter how destitute you are, you're on the hook. The worst part is that it makes it harder (and more expensive) to get housing, a job, insurance, and many other things these days when you have collections bringing down your credit score. No matter how responsible you've been, if you're poor and can't afford private insurance and work for a company that either doesn't provide it at all or doesn't subsidize the group insurance, you'll be having a bad time when an uninsured driver hits you and injures you, or you get food poisoning from whatever restaurant or you just end up with a spontaneous pneumothorax despite being a relatively healthy nonsmoker.

The current system ruins people's lives in an unavoidable way (aside from being rich). That's not OK to me. I'm not sure what should be done about it, but surely there's a better system than what we're doing now.

Again, what are someone's priorities? How much risk are you willing to assume of your own?  If you are 23 and believe your chances of needing major medical coverage are very slim, then chances are you won't pay for a private health insurance policy and will spend your resources on other things.  However, I fail to see when there's suddenly a need for a doctor visit or ER visit that everyone else should be stuck paying for it because the said 23 year old failed to properly prioritize his/her financial and health priorities.  If he/she does not have the money at the time services are due, if they will simply be up front with the provider, they CAN pay it out in regular installments with the provider and it will not go against their credit so long as they are dilligent in paying and don't let it go over to a collection agency.

I just found out yesterday that I will be having surgery next week on my left shoulder for a tear.  It's a progressive issue that has nagged me for a long time and probably isn't helped by a lot of the physical activities I do and it is also probably partially due to genetics.  Since my insurance year has rolled over, I will have a $1000 deductible and a co-pay on the surgery, anesthesiologist, surgeon, facility, etc.  Why don't I just pass the hat and ask all of you guys to pay for my out of pocket costs?  Why should I be responsible for them?  I was hoping to go back to the British Virgin Islands this spring and that money sure would be handy for rum drinks and such, and I'd really rather not blow it on a medical procedure I need to live pain-free.  I also need to finish trim and paint work on my house this spring as well and I'm hoping to buy another sailboat again soon.  So whaddya say?  Crickets?

My point is this: certainly I agree there are people who simply cannot afford healthcare and there are mechanisms already in place to make sure those who are not capable of paying can, in fact, get care, from Medicaid and Medicare, to state-sponsored programs, community charitable programs, payment plans, and right up to bankruptcy.  

There are also a greater percentage of people who could pay for healthcare but choose other financial priorities and that percentage is a lot greater than most would believe.  I have no problem with there being programs to help lower income people have good access to healthcare and looking at ways to lower healthcare costs.  

This simply has become another hysteria issue much like global climate change where far more fear than an examination of reality and facts is being perpetrated on the masses in order to fulfill a campaign pledge of "healthcare reform".  Better than 95% of the population will have no real clue of what all a final bill will contain, nor what that reform is.  Ask a broad question like: "Do you want health care reform?" certainly a majority will answer yes.  Ask people more specifically: "Do you want the government managing and having access to all your medical information as a result of health care reform?" and I'm sure there would be a resounding "NO!".  This has far more to do with satisfying special interests who helped elect this class of Representatives and Senators and trying to retain seats in the next elections than it does altruistic motives in "fixing" health care.

Speaking to solutions from part of what you said, Nathan:

One solution I'd like to see is not weighing credit scores so heavily with medical collections which can raise the interest rate consumers pay for houses, cars, and open credit lines.  I'd also like to see either limiting or banning outright, the use of credit reports in determining insurance rates for everything from life insurance to auto insurance.  I simply fail to get the correlation between bad credit and someone being more of a claims risk for an auto or home insurance policy even though actuaries will argue this point.  I think access to credit reports by employers should be limited strictly to those with some sort of fiduciary capacity within a company.  Limiting employment or promotional opportunities based on credit is wrong and doesn't relate either unless someone handles money for a living.

[guido911]

The current system ruins people's lives in an unavoidable way (aside from being rich). That's not OK to me. I'm not sure what should be done about it, but surely there's a better system than what we're doing now.

The current system ruins saves people's lives in an unavoidable way (aside from being rich). That's not OK to me. I'm not sure what should be done about it, but surely there's a better system than what we're doing now.

fify

[nathanm]

Again, what are someone's priorities? How much risk are you willing to assume of your own?  If you are 23 and believe your chances of needing major medical coverage are very slim, then chances are you won't pay for a private health insurance policy and will spend your resources on other things.  However, I fail to see when there's suddenly a need for a doctor visit or ER visit that everyone else should be stuck paying for it because the said 23 year old failed to properly prioritize his/her financial and health priorities.  If he/she does not have the money at the time services are due, if they will simply be up front with the provider, they CAN pay it out in regular installments with the provider and it will not go against their credit so long as they are dilligent in paying and don't let it go over to a collection agency.

I just found out yesterday that I will be having surgery next week on my left shoulder for a tear.  It's a progressive issue that has nagged me for a long time and probably isn't helped by a lot of the physical activities I do and it is also probably partially due to genetics.  Since my insurance year has rolled over, I will have a $1000 deductible and a co-pay on the surgery, anesthesiologist, surgeon, facility, etc.  Why don't I just pass the hat and ask all of you guys to pay for my out of pocket costs?  Why should I be responsible for them?  I was hoping to go back to the British Virgin Islands this spring and that money sure would be handy for rum drinks and such, and I'd really rather not blow it on a medical procedure I need to live pain-free.  I also need to finish trim and paint work on my house this spring as well and I'm hoping to buy another sailboat again soon.  So whaddya say?  Crickets?

My point is this: certainly I agree there are people who simply cannot afford healthcare and there are mechanisms already in place to make sure those who are not capable of paying can, in fact, get care, from Medicaid and Medicare, to state-sponsored programs, community charitable programs, payment plans, and right up to bankruptcy.  

There are also a greater percentage of people who could pay for healthcare but choose other financial priorities and that percentage is a lot greater than most would believe.  I have no problem with there being programs to help lower income people have good access to healthcare and looking at ways to lower healthcare costs.  

Speaking to solutions from part of what you said, Nathan:

One solution I'd like to see is not weighing credit scores so heavily with medical collections which can raise the interest rate consumers pay for houses, cars, and open credit lines.  I'd also like to see either limiting or banning outright, the use of credit reports in determining insurance rates for everything from life insurance to auto insurance.  I simply fail to get the correlation between bad credit and someone being more of a claims risk for an auto or home insurance policy even though actuaries will argue this point.  I think access to credit reports by employers should be limited strictly to those with some sort of fiduciary capacity within a company.  Limiting employment or promotional opportunities based on credit is wrong and doesn't relate either unless someone handles money for a living.

Bankruptcy is not a health plan. You can only do it once every ten years.

Also, just to clarify, the person I'm talking about was insured and had plenty of money in the bank for his deductible.

Moreover, I've seen doctors whose bills go to collections and on your credit report in under two weeks. It's ridiculous. (They're not all that way, but I've seen it personally) The only saving grace here is that under HIPPA, once you've repaid your debt they can't continue reporting the former medical collection. Great if your bill isn't 20 grand.

The fact of the matter is that many, if not most, low income people currently have very poor access to health care and very little help to pay for it. They get even less preventative care than the abysmal standard set by the insured in this country. Something should be done about it. I don't get the resistance, it's not as if you aren't already paying for their catastrophic care. You'd end up paying less if they'd get treated before it became a full on emergency requiring heroic measures to keep them alive.

And one reason you see so many people prioritizing some discretionary spending over health care? When you don't have enough money to pay the doctor either way, what difference does it make if you buy some yarn or whatever? When you're making $200 a week (or I suppose $250 these days), how exactly are you going to pay for insurance and still eat? Or worse, how are you going to pay an $25000 hospital bill when you let an ulcer go too long because you can't afford the $150 to see a doctor and you collapse and are rushed to the ER and immediately undergo emergency surgery? I suppose living on the streets and not eating for two years is a viable option.

Before you say "they should get a better job," you might consider that even if the specific person I'm speaking of improves their position in life, there will always be people making minimum wage. We can't just leave them to rot.

I guess I've just known too many people who the current system has completely and utterly failed to consider it anything but completely broken and in need of overhaul. As I said, I don't know what the fix is.

FWIW, I agree that the bill under consideration is completely sub-optimal. It barely falls into the better than nothing category. It's to be expected, though, given the amount of money the insurance companies have spent on lobbying and "donated" to various political campaigns in the last few months. It is better than nothing for the folks who are currently being left behind by our lack of a system.

And guido, our current system keeps (some) people alive, at the cost of medical bills that can never be paid by a large portion of those who get care.

Ironically, the stress of owing so much money makes future health problems even more likely.

[guido911]

And guido, our current system keeps (some) people alive, at the cost of medical bills that can never be paid by a large portion of those who get care.

Ironically, the stress of owing so much money makes future health problems even more likely.

Keeps "some" people alive? You are really reaching down into the depths of unbelievable ingratitude to people who keep more than "some" people alive. I cannot tell you how many people I helped keep alive in my hospital days or the large number of people a close family member keeps alive each week. Your health care populism in this connection is bordering on insulting, but certainly beyond mindless, at this point. Feel free to keep reaching though.

[we vs us]

Keeps "some" people alive? You are really reaching down into the depths of unbelievable ingratitude to people who keep more than "some" people alive. I cannot tell you how many people I helped keep alive in my hospital days or the large number of people a close family member keeps alive each week. Your health care populism in this connection is bordering on insulting, but certainly beyond mindless, at this point. Feel free to keep reaching though.

Your sense of entitlement about what people owe you for your service is mind-boggling.  I'm a little astounded that your whole political philosophy is based around not feeling congratulated enough.

[guido911]

Your sense of entitlement about what people owe you for your service is mind-boggling.  I'm a little astounded that your whole political philosophy is based around not feeling congratulated enough.

Who said anything about being "owe[d]" anything? I am tired of folks like Nate hammering our health care system and belittling the efforts of those who deliver health care. Period. But what should I expect (beyond a little astounded) from you and those like you whose political philosophy is based around not being given enough by other people.

[Conan71]

Nathan, I understood that your friend had insurance and could pay the costs.  At what point were they supposed to cull the necessary payment information from him?  It sounds like they made a sound triage evaluation and decision, so what's the problem?

You can provide the basic preventative care and still people will neglect to take advantage of it.  You cannot force anyone to take a proactive approach to their own health care if they don't want to do it.

Start here and tell me how limited the choices are for free healthcare in Tulsa. 

http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:rgQUrfkRnhYJ:www.csctulsa.org/images/Tulsa%2520Area%2520Free%2520Clinic%2520Coalition%2520Directory%2520-%2520April%252020071.doc+OSU+Tulsa+free+clinics&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

http://www.mortonhealth.org/locations.html

http://tulsa.ou.edu/medicine/bedlam/clinics.htm

From OU-

"OUR CLINICS SERVE   
Medically underserved areas and populations with

Low primary care physician-to-population ratio
High infant mortality rate
High percent of population living below Federal Poverty Level
 
Health provider shortage areas

Shortage of primary medical service providers
Shortage of primary care dentists
Shortage of psychiatrists, clinical psychologists and clinical social workers

Here's Dallas:

http://www.freemedicalcamps.com/vcamp.php?cityid=6

Do the same for KC, New York, Miami, LA, etc. ad nauseum.

Oh wait, I know, the argument now is that this is somehow substandard healthcare and that everyone deserves the same treatment options as those more financially capable.  **smacks forehead**

I could spend all day Googling this, but I'll let you.  I simply refuse to buy into the need for government control of health care based on a bunch of ignorance of what really is available versus what is characterized as being available by a bunch of corrupt politicians and lazy investigative news media who are standing behind a half-assed bill which essentially does nothing but spend more money on more bureaucracy without any regard for patient care. 

Again- there is no lack of health care in this country for those who really want it or need it.  Including illegal aliens who have never paid a penny into our tax system (yes I realize there are illegals who pay in via payroll taxes, there are those who work cash only jobs and pay zilch).

[nathanm]

Keeps "some" people alive? You are really reaching down into the depths of unbelievable ingratitude

I think you're reaching down into the depths of your imagination to misread what I'm writing. I have never called into question the utility or skill of doctors and nurses themselves. I have written about the shady business practices of a small number of doctors in a few areas of our country, and I have written about the business practices of the insurance companies and hospitals, who often deserve no adulation.

When my SO tells me that my breath stinks, that's not belittling anything else I may be or have done. You seem to think that having a flaw diminishes your achievements in other areas. That is not the case. I can simultaneously be appreciative of the doctors who have prolonged so many of my family members' lives (paid for by Medicare and Tricare, mainly..great if you can get it), and take note that millions of my fellow countrymen simply don't have reasonable access to medical care. At no time did I blame "those who deliver healthcare." I blame those who manage the health care business.

The way you seem to take offense at any criticism whatsoever, no matter how unrelated to yourself, is puzzling.

Lastly, what I want is not to be "given" something. I want our health care system to be fixed such that it becomes more affordable to use healthcare and such that everyone is able to get it when they need it. I prefer the destitute not get me sick with their untreated illnesses and run up high ER bills that I have to pay for because they can't afford to get their condition treated before it becomes an emergency situation. I'm selfish that way.

I want us all to be able to pay for our healthcare, not have it given to me. Of course, if my SO were to lose her job, I'd like for her to be able to keep her coverage while she finds another, too. I'd like that for you, too.

[swake]

Who said anything about being "owe[d]" anything? I am tired of folks like Nate hammering our health care system and belittling the efforts of those who deliver health care. Period. But what should I expect (beyond a little astounded) from you and those like you whose political philosophy is based around not being given enough by other people.

While your chest thumping about the "efforts of those who deliver health care" is nice, you are personally being enriched by the current system and your position on health care reform is more about your own cash bottom line than anyone's good health.
Our healthcare system has degenerated into being for the enrichment of doctors, insurance companies and big pharma and is not about healthcare. We spend far more than any other nation on healthcare for worse outcomes and less coverage. It's not about "paying for other people" it about the fact that our costs are out of sight and the healthcare systems goals are not in line with patient needs or the nation's best interest.  We don't have the world's best healthcare system, far from it, we just have the costliest.

[guido911]

While your chest thumping about the "efforts of those who deliver health care" is nice, you are personally being enriched by the current system and your position on health care reform is more about your own cash bottom line than anyone's good health.
Our healthcare system has degenerated into being for the enrichment of doctors, insurance companies and big pharma and is not about healthcare. We spend far more than any other nation on healthcare for worse outcomes and less coverage. It's not about "paying for other people" it about the fact that our costs are out of sight and the healthcare systems goals are not in line with patient needs or the nation's best interest.  We don't have the world's best healthcare system, far from it, we just have the costliest.

There you go again, health care needs reforming because of those greedy doctors, evil insurance companies, and evil big pharma. More populist crap, all the while ignoring the other factors contributing to health care costs such as trial lawyers and patient abuse. As for your attack on doctors, tell you what, put your life on hold and why don't you go to college for four years, then medical school for four years (both at massive financial cost btw), then residency for fours years, then bear the massive expense of continuing education and licensing/credentialing, then pay medical malpractice insurance that costs more than most people earn in a year, then go to work every day thinking that if you make a mistake someone could die (happen much in your present profession, how about your professions wevsus or ruf?), and then talk to us about healthcare degenerating into the enrichment of doctors. Simply stated, you have no freakin idea what you are talking about.

Now, do I believe some reform is necessary? Absolutely. I support tax free health care savings accounts, tort reform (which sorta cuts at your insipid profiteering bs), allowing people to purchase insurance across state lines, allowing individuals/small companies to pool and buy insurance at group rates. I know, most of these are market-driven solutions and do not involve you receiving a hand out, but they would reduce costs and increase coverage.

Also, everyone here seems to forget that I supported Obama on s-chip (even though he financed it through a tobacco tax which resulted in taxing those earning less than the $250K which violated a campaign promise).  

[guido911]

I think you're reaching down into the depths of your imagination to misread what I'm writing. I have never called into question the utility or skill of doctors and nurses themselves.

No, you just accuse them of being more interested in getting billing information over the treatment/health of the patient, rapidly sending bill collectors after non-paying patients, and minimizing the significant contribution they make in the form of saving more than just "some" lives. That's all.

[RecycleMichael]

Also, everyone here seems to forget that I supported Obama on s-chip...

Obama spooner.

It is just a matter of time before we persuade you to become a liberal.

[Conan71]

Obama spooner.

It is just a matter of time before we persuade you to become a liberal.

Post of the week 

[guido911]

Obama spooner.

It is just a matter of time before we persuade you to become a liberal.

Really funny. I also supported his trip to Iraq early in his tenure to visit the troops.