Negotiating union/city contracts.

[shadows]

There is much comment on negotiating contracts with the unions.  These contracts are drawn up by persons that do  not see the working poor's needs, who on the bottom line is required to divvy up the money through increased taxes or fee's.  The meeting are held behind closed doors by persons with self interest.  The union is saying that they have to take it before its members who are told before a vote what they are voting on.

Is it not a lopsided negotiation where the working poor who do not have a right to vote on it as a party of the first part, furnishing the money resources, only to find out they have been obligated by increasing their utilities, fees and property taxes?   Is this what the founders meant with "We the people"?  

[shadows]

The economy of capitalism is based on over production creating surplus that can be used in trading.  Labor becomes a commode when and only if is derived from capitalism's production.  Government jobs when not needed is a drain on labors ability to maintain a monetary structure that balances out all basic trade formulas.  Thus the laborer in an independent necessary function in any recovery.

The president has tried all the things that Roosevelt used in the great depression but issued the stimulus to the upper classes for them to trickle it down to the lower classes.   Instead they grabbed the money and ran to off shore banking saying they need more.

Tulsa is run by an un-auditable spread out government, teetering on the edge of the cliff of involuntary deficit with the winds of change pushing from their backs .  Many of the sworn employees are ready to grab their pension and run as they just want to make sure they keep their perks.

Tulsa open their arms to immigrants from most of the world to take the labors jobs but still they lookdown  on the Mexican race who are the true Americans, descendants of other highly advanced societies that were here a 1,000 years before the European arrived.

One cannot understand why the writers on this board do not want to address the true problems Tulsa faces with exiting tax structure, and fenced in by the suburbs curtailing expansion.  Costly planning?  Or was Tulsa downtown built by the oil barons from stealing the oil rights from the natives that had been given them forever?   

[Red Arrow]

The economy of capitalism is based on over production creating surplus that can be used in trading.  Labor becomes a commode (Did you intend to write commodity?) when and only if is derived from capitalism's production. 

[waterboy]

Shadows, I detect many conflicts in your posts recently. It is hard to see you take the position of defender "of the working poor" and the descendant of exploited Native American's, whilst attacking the unions and government who are the only defense against those who would continue the oppression of those groups.

I take issue with most of your basic assumptions outlined above. Capital without labor is useless for a growing country. When the scales are tipped towards the owners of wealth, the economy tends to stagnate. That is what seems to be happening. A correction is in order and is going to be painful for many.

One cannot understand why the writers on this board do not want to address the true problems Tulsa faces with exiting tax structure, and fenced in by the suburbs curtailing expansion.  Costly planning?  Or was Tulsa downtown built by the oil barons from stealing the oil rights from the natives that had been given them forever?   

Address the problems? We can't even Identify the problems! What is your pleasure? Shall we drop sales tax as funding in favor of property tax? Shall we levy a fee on each utility bill? Shall we place a poll tax on each of the suburbs' citizens? Costly planning mistakes indeed. Or are we doomed forever to be short of funding because of the robber barons actions of the past (perhaps check with Pat Robertson for any deals they made?)

Anyway, once people divide into partisan camps, ain't gonna be much problem solving.

[Conan71]

One thing which could have helped our revenue base would have been for our local delegation in the state Senate and HOR to try and appropriate a portion of state income, tobacco, or oil revenue taxes to help supplement our sales tax revenue base.  We've had an abject failure there and now with state budget shortfalls we've missed the boat on attempting something like that for at least several years until the state pulls out of the revenue crisis it finds its self in.

I was against state income tax cuts, as it didn't take into account any potential contractions in the economy which could affect revenues.  One thing our state legislators need to understand is that conservatism isn't tied strictly to tax cuts, especially when surplus margins are fairly narrow.

[Hawkins]

Shadow, you post like a college history professor giving a lecture.

You use a lot of generalities that may or may no apply to the subject at hand.

I'm not saying you are not interesting to read, and I agree with some of what you say.

But all I was saying about the city worker's union and the Mayor was that Bartlett had used terrible judgment and tact, and had failed at the game of politics when dealing with this budget crisis. He's a Mayor, and he's supposed to be a polititian. He's no "Get back to work, you lousy pilots" Ronald Reagan.

Handing out an ultimatum instead of approaching with a strategy of negotiation was a bad move. He's so early out of the gate, though, he still has time to repair the damage.

Your accusations of "Democracy fails after so many years" are not constructive to this argument. Democracy gives people the freedom to pursue their dreams. This forum, of all I've come across, is full of dreamers. You say its all run by small groups of private interests now, and that the worker-class has no say.

I say that may be true to some extent, but they have the ability to move. They have the freedom to apply for loans and open their own businesses, however ridiculous they may be (a classic arcade bar in a dead area comes to mind). They have freedom to move to Dallas and work for a better-equipped police department. Just let nature take its course. Things will get worse in Tulsa before they get better.

Heck, things may never get better. A good friend of mine who was born here decided in High School that he had to get out of Tulsa if he wanted to make a good living. He graduated at the top of his class, went on to get an Electrical Engineering degree at TU, and then promptly left for Dallas. He now lives in San Francisco. That's what smart people do, they pursue their dreams and use our freedom to pursue them.

I agree with you on the immigrant worker issue. There is too much hate in Tulsa for Mexicans, and its downright stupid. We have mega churches that send kids on mission trips to Mexico to spread religion and theoretically improve their lives, but GOD FORBID these people follow us back here and actually try to improve their lives by washing our dishes or mowing our lawns. They are family-oriented, good people. And the law does not allow for them to acquire citizenship legally in the poor state that they are in. No reason to hate them. If I were born there, I'd try to get over too, particularly if my family lived in poverty.

In summary, people are no different that animals in nature. Let it take its course. But keep up with the all-encompassing posts, I enjoy them. 

[Conan71]

Shadow, you post like a college history professor giving a lecture.

You use a lot of generalities that may or may no apply to the subject at hand.

I'm not saying you are not interesting to read, and I agree with some of what you say.

But all I was saying about the city worker's union and the Mayor was that Bartlett had used terrible judgment and tact, and had failed at the game of politics when dealing with this budget crisis. He's a Mayor, and he's supposed to be a polititian. He's no "Get back to work, you lousy pilots" Ronald Reagan.

Handing out an ultimatum instead of approaching with a strategy of negotiation was a bad move. He's so early out of the gate, though, he still has time to repair the damage.

Your accusations of "Democracy fails after so many years" are not constructive to this argument. Democracy gives people the freedom to pursue their dreams. This forum, of all I've come across, is full of dreamers. You say its all run by small groups of private interests now, and that the worker-class has no say.

I say that may be true to some extent, but they have the ability to move. They have the freedom to apply for loans and open their own businesses, however ridiculous they may be (a classic arcade bar in a dead area comes to mind). They have freedom to move to Dallas and work for a better-equipped police department. Just let nature take its course. Things will get worse in Tulsa before they get better.

Heck, things may never get better. A good friend of mine who was born here decided in High School that he had to get out of Tulsa if he wanted to make a good living. He graduated at the top of his class, went on to get an Electrical Engineering degree at TU, and then promptly left for Dallas. He now lives in San Francisco. That's what smart people do, they pursue their dreams and use our freedom to pursue them.

I agree with you on the immigrant worker issue. There is too much hate in Tulsa for Mexicans, and its downright stupid. We have mega churches that send kids on mission trips to Mexico to spread religion and theoretically improve their lives, but GOD FORBID these people follow us back here and actually try to improve their lives by washing our dishes or mowing our lawns. They are family-oriented, good people. And the law does not allow for them to acquire citizenship legally in the poor state that they are in. No reason to hate them. If I were born there, I'd try to get over too, particularly if my family lived in poverty.

In summary, people are no different that animals in nature. Let it take its course. But keep up with the all-encompassing posts, I enjoy them. 

Pour just one more ounce of water in your glass, your posts are getting depressing. 

I disagree with your diatribe on immigration:

"And the law does not allow for them to acquire citizenship legally in the poor state that they are in."

The law does allow for them to acquire it legally, it's called "legal migration".  Many poor immigrants, many of them Mexicans, have managed to migrate legally and legally become United States citizens.  You also miss the boat if you think immigration laws are hateful and designed to discriminate against Mexicans.  The laws are in place to keep our social services and resources from being over-run by those who are skirting laws and exploiting them and from over-taxing the system in general.  They are also there to protect law-abiding citizens from those who are hiding from "the man" by not doing simple things like buying auto liability insurance to keep from being detected by the system.

If you throw open the borders and simply allow anyone who wants to come here and suck up all our wonderful medical care, get free food, and have no requirements to operate a motor vehicle, etc. the United States becomes nothing but a dumping ground and will become a third world country resembling present day Mexico (as it relates to poverty, homelessness, disease, and government corruption) real quick while countries who enforce their immigration laws continue to function quite efficiently.

[Red Arrow]

He's no "Get back to work, you lousy pilots" Ronald Reagan.

Are you thinking of the Air Traffic Controllers? 

[Conan71]

Are you thinking of the Air Traffic Controllers? 

Pilot/ATC what's the difference? They both do things with those air plane thingies.

Hawkins doesn't seem too wrapped up in letting facts getting in the way of taking a really huge country dump on local morale. 

[shadows]

Waterboy quoted:
-----------------------------------------------------------
Address the problems? We can't even Identify the problems! What is your pleasure? Shall we drop sales tax as funding in favor of property tax? Shall we levy a fee on each utility bill? Shall we place a poll tax on each of the suburbs' citizens? Costly planning mistakes indeed. Or are we doomed forever to be short of funding because of the robber barons actions of the past (perhaps check with Pat Robertson for any deals they made?)

Anyway, once people divide into partisan camps, ain't gonna be much problem solving.
---------------------------------------------------   

In addressing the problems one must first look how far we have come as we emerged as many packs out of the wilds. We should only be our brothers keeper not trying to control the world as did Rome with its extending inflation.  Tulsa has a republic form of government not a democracy.  As Jefferson said a democracy leads to mob rule.  The elections are held on working days which restricts many voter thus most are elected offices, and they are getting fewer each year, are by a majority of the minority.

As written we are in the check out line with a maxed out credit card of which we unable to pay the tab.  Does our solution lie with putting item not needed for survival back or go to the streets and rob the poor of any money they have left?

Our crisis is as old as out history but liken the Farris Wheel we have been on the top and bottom and will not get off.  The development of the steam engine opened the industrial revolution whereas it created the unemployed that created the war of 1860.  The high inflation rate after WW1 made our products beyond the reach of Europe which caused an overproduction of goods and food supplies.  This laid the foundation for the great depression.  When Hoover was unable to contain the over supply Roosevelt was to take over and government bought and destroyed the surplus.

Unions were developed during the great depression.  Its powers were derived from acts of congress with the idea that it would allow a set of standard for the wage earner when the minimum wage was 25 cents per hour.  Then out of the wilds come the racketeers to exploited the employer as the Department of Labor and the US Conciliation service was established to require unions and employers to negotiate in good faith. The flaw that still remains is that many workers are not educated to run a business and such is true on them running a city.

Tulsa is at the gate looking at the other side with greener grass.  We say that there is in excess of 400,000 employees in the Metro area.  The seven percent unemployed sure doesn't sound many if you say it real fast but that equates to 28,000 unemployed and increasing. There is about 14,000 less city taxpayers than a year ago.  Paying bills by deductions is effecting many jobs as reduced paperwork eliminate more jobs. 

Computer sales reduce tax incomes and the states cannot tax the residents of another states will make it very difficult to tax the internet.  Tulsa has a more expensive governing body that they can afford so it is time to realign their cost of government and be prepared for the doomsday that will become effective after June 30     

Tulsa is one of the few cities where Revenue Bonds can be issued for capital improvement at 20% over the market rate and can become GO property bonds, increasing house payments, with payment on demand.

Red Arrow:  Have this machine set on auto correction and it was changed to where it could be construed to mean sh.t or get off the pot.  Just an error.

       

[waterboy]

I don't want to argue politics and history with you Shadow. Yours and my understanding of both are in dispute. I would remind you that education in business and its practices is not correlated with success. Ignorant businessmen like Vanderbilt and Brady used their ruthlessness, ethical deficits and bullying personalities to make money. So do lots of latter day businessmen.  I'm sure stupid laborers can figure out how to vote their interests too. To say otherwise is to believe that voters in general should have to actually understand their own government.

What I want from you, and all the other critics of Bartlett, Obama, etc., is identifying just what put us in this position and more importantly, concrete solutions to lead us out and prevent re-occurance. I don't think it will happen, because of partisanship. Politics and religion share a fundamental principle-faith in the face of facts to the contrary. We would have to analyze and discard some treasured beliefs that each party holds dear.

So, yes, I share your cynicizm.

[rwarn17588]

Jeez Louise, there's a bunch of mopes in this forum right now.

Maybe I'm too sunny for y'all. It's a long story, but for nearly 20 years, I've taken the attitude that any day above ground is a good day.

Maybe that's the reason over the years that I keep finding a job when I go looking for one -- because I'm not holding a pity party all of the time. I have a faith in myself and a faith in the people of this country. Times are hard now, but we'll get through it. We always do.

No one gives you a medal for being a mope, so you'd better quit acting like one (I'm looking at you, shadows and Hawkins).

And, yes, I'm quite excited about checking out the coming BBQ place and bar arcade before a Drillers games downtown. If the rest of y'all want to hide under your beds and wait for the next shoe to drop, go ahead. But I won't join you.

[shadows]

We are faced with a new revolution as the mega corporations form and by controlling capital have eliminated the competition that was the backbone of our industrial might.  The development of the computer when combined with the robot machine placed millions in the unemployed lines as one combination allows one machinist to operate 10 machines, thus 9 jobs disappeared forever.  When one multiplies this by thousands it is easy to understand the crisis we are in as millions become unemployed.

We get envelops that are printed with "Save the stamp".  They are encouraging us to go to electronic banking in paying utility bills.  Do we stop to think of the loss of jobs.  The woodsman who cuts the tree, the miller that makes the pulp, the worker who makes the paper, the maker of the
Envelopes, the worker who delivers the envelopes, the worker who opens the envelopes, the book keeper who records the checks, the one who makes the deposits and even the postman will no longer be needed as his job will be gone with pony express.  Due to the escalating cost of labor the jobs become fewer each day as they are outsourced to foreign industries, who enjoy this new source of income.  Our failure to insure the piece of paper printed with green ink is putting them into the same crisis we are in. 

Like the industrial revolution, e-mail, cell phones, electronic barter of exchange, computer operated machines, foreign imports and immigrants who cannot get along with their native government we welcome with open arms for them to come here.  Thus millions of jobs have been lost forever.  With them the taxpayers have disappeared.  Still in Tulsa where the bureaucracies set their own salaries many cannot see the clouds gathering for another depression.

In the present electronic revolution how do you create jobs for thousands in Tulsa?  We have created jobs through taxpayer funding.  City, State and Federal.  These agencies are taking the money from the pockets of the working poor and ageing to finance unsecured ventures.   

In determining ability it is the IQ of the person that allows their business  success not the education factor.

What we need is some more pot belly citizens looking forward to new fast food outlets.  According to stats that is a true American.             

[rwarn17588]

We get envelops that are printed with "Save the stamp".  They are encouraging us to go to electronic banking in paying utility bills.  Do we stop to think of the loss of jobs.  The woodsman who cuts the tree, the miller that makes the pulp, the worker who makes the paper, the maker of the
Envelopes, the worker who delivers the envelopes, the worker who opens the envelopes, the book keeper who records the checks, the one who makes the deposits and even the postman will no longer be needed as his job will be gone with pony express.   

I like how you advocate a Luddite attitude to modern technology, then tear it all down with your Pony Express comparison.

As usual, you missed the point. This is one of the most exciting eras in our history. We're seeing great things we never thought we'd see. Welcome to the future.

[Hawkins]

You can ignore me if you want, shadows, but I only chose to pick on you because I like you.

You do make for some interesting reading.