Domestic terrorist

[Conan71]

The Tea Party is a novelty... nothing but pure partisanship.  I think they have energized a certain frustration most everyone has with the broken system in DC (Hey, I hear VP Biden finally got that this week!) but a deeply partisan agenda isn't going to work.  Ultra-conservatives will find they only account for 15 to 20% of the populace who care about politics.  Much like ultra liberals.  We need to be thinking more about compromises and finding common ground instead of accepting this bullshit from DC that failed partisan agendas are the fault of the other party and a lack of bi-partisanship.  I'm going to hammer this point home ad-nauseum until people finally get it: bi-partisanship isn't threats, disrespect, or knuckling to pressure.  Speaker Tip O'neill and President Ronald Reagan knew what that meant.

It used to be that political differences were like professional jealousy.  Now they are shrill acrimony.

The true fault lies in the idea that 60 to 70% of people don't want what DC is peddling, but the flow of money from SIGS, PACS, and corporations (this could not have been a worse time for the recent corporate electioneering ruling from SCROTUS) is countering what most of us want.  I don't like the idea that I need to send millions of $$ to a bunch of skanks in DC to get anything done.  That's most definitely something our founding fathers did not envision nor want.  They didn't even want anyone to be a professional politician.

[Conan71]

Another question:  is this actually terrorism?  It's a furious, crazy guy driving his plane into a building.  If you read his manifesto you'll find a lot of loose political ranting but nothing that really amounts to more than personal grievances.  So, if you suicide-plane yourself into an IRS building and you have nothing particular in mind other than personal vengeance, is it terrorism?

I've had trouble wrapping my mind around this.  A certain hyperbolist who no longer posts here perverted the term of "domestic terrorist" in my mind so I've become reluctant to use it.  I do differentiate on this case over the killing of Dr. Tiller in that Scott Roeder had a personal vendetta against a particular individual due to that individual's chosen line of work, though it could be argued that Dr. Tiller was a symbol or institution as much as he was an individual. If we can apply that as a standard for domestic terrorism, then every cop killer becomes another domestic terrorist, or every person who kills a cheating spouse could be a terrorist because it strikes fear into other people engaged in adultry as a possible outcome of their actions. 

When I saw the first pics of the building, Murrah came to mind.  Initially, newscasts were saying this was in the flight path to an airport and nothing nefarious had happened.  This guy had the same sort of rage that Tim McVeigh had, enough to strike a building with Federal employees and other unknown occupants who simply did nothing more than show up for work this morning.  Fortunately it appears the body count is the inverse this time as far as perpetrator vs. victims.

McVeigh was a furious, crazy guy with personal grievances and a large bomb in the back of a rental truck.  I'm not trying to trivialize the point, just simply trying to figure out at what point someone becomes a terrorist, martyr, patriot, or victim of our government.  Could be an interesting discussion so long as FOTD and Jamesrage don't show up for it.

[dbacks fan]

  Initially, newscasts were saying this was in the flight path to an airport and nothing nefarious had happened. 

Being the geek that I am when I first saw some of the live feed and still pics and some other info I actually google earthed where the building is and then backed out and found that there is an airport about 13 miles to the SSE of the building, Austin Bergstrom Airport (Formerly Bergstrom AFB) and thought that it was a possibility of a crash after take off. But looking more closely around the crash site it just didn't fit as an accident. I'm not an expert, it just didn't look right.

[dbacks fan]

BOT, I would consider him a looney with a vendeta, much like a disgruntled employee (Patrick Sherrill and others) who snapped and took out their anger on a specific target. Not to say that it isn't terrorism, but I don't think it fits the definition, but then again I think that what people now define as terrorism has changed.

[we vs us]

Terrorism as I understand it always has a political component, and at its most simplistic "exists to cause terror."  The pilot definitely was rockin' the first, but it's not so clear whether or not he was going for the second.  Yes, he said he wanted to inspire the "american zombies" to wake up, but there was no real movement behind him to sustain the political effect of the act itself. 

Maybe that's the real dividing line.  A truly terrorist act exists as part of a larger strategy to effect change.  If it's just a one-off thing, maybe it's just a crazy loner being crazy.

[Conan71]

Terrorism as I understand it always has a political component, and at its most simplistic "exists to cause terror."  The pilot definitely was rockin' the first, but it's not so clear whether or not he was going for the second.  Yes, he said he wanted to inspire the "american zombies" to wake up, but there was no real movement behind him to sustain the political effect of the act itself. 

Maybe that's the real dividing line.  A truly terrorist act exists as part of a larger strategy to effect change.  If it's just a one-off thing, maybe it's just a crazy loner being crazy.

If sensationalizing the term "terrorism" will sell more ads on CNN, MSNBC, FOX, and the rest of the alphabet, you can bet this will be considered terrorism by the media.

[rwarn17588]

Terrorism as I understand it always has a political component, and at its most simplistic "exists to cause terror."  The pilot definitely was rockin' the first, but it's not so clear whether or not he was going for the second.  Yes, he said he wanted to inspire the "american zombies" to wake up, but there was no real movement behind him to sustain the political effect of the act itself. 

Maybe that's the real dividing line.  A truly terrorist act exists as part of a larger strategy to effect change.  If it's just a one-off thing, maybe it's just a crazy loner being crazy.

It's an interesting discussion. I see little difference, other than scale, between him and the jackasses who flew jetliners into buildings in Washington and NYC. Like bin Laden, he had some sort of big beef with the U.S. government, and wanted to inflict as much damage as possible in a kamikaze effort.

Maybe it's time to simply retire the now almost-meaningless "terrorism" tag and call these guys what they really are -- cold-blooded murderers.

[dbacks fan]

From Encyclopidia Britanic "Terrorism - the systematic use of violence to create a general climate of fear in a population and thereby to bring about a particular political objective. Terrorism has been practiced by political organizations with both rightist and leftist objectives, by nationalistic and religious groups, by revolutionaries, and even by state institutions such as armies, intelligence services, and police."

And from Webster's Dictionary http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/terrorist

Mainly they state that terrorists and terrorism is funded by an orginazation to inflict fear and panic on a certain segment of a population (Catholic v Protestant in Northern Ireland, IRA v British Gov't)

By strict definition, I would have to say no, since no group or orginazation has stepped forward to claim responsibility, but I think that the rules have changed. McNut and the Murrah bombing, which was a funded attack against a government building by a radical faction in the US in response to Koresh and Waco, was a terrorist act.

[Conan71]

I'm simply curious what kind of draconian measures this assclown has now left general aviation and commercial building management with.  There will be some sort of far-reaching over-reaction to this which will limit others liberties you can bet on it.

[dbacks fan]

I'm simply curious what kind of draconian measures this assclown has now left general aviation and commercial building management with.  There will be some sort of far-reaching over-reaction to this which will limit others liberties you can bet on it.

+1

And if I was in Tulsa I'd buy you a Marshall's for hitting the nail on the head.

Probably start doing profiles and background checks on anyone with a civilian pilots license to see if they have any issues or grievences with Uncle Sam.

[patric]

If you really must compare the two incidents, the 9/11 hijackers were previously radicalized zealots offered a chance to die for a "higher cause" by attacking innocent people at symbolic targets.

The Austin pilot, on the other hand, was someone who's world suddenly fell apart at the hands of the IRS and he targeted them specifically.

In that perspective, it's not terrorism but revenge.
It wouldnt surprise me though if the IRS wasnt fueling much of the "terrorism" rhetoric themselves.

[Conan71]

+1

And if I was in Tulsa I'd buy you a Marshall's for hitting the nail on the head.

Probably start doing profiles and background checks on anyone with a civilian pilots license to see if they have any issues or grievences with Uncle Sam.

Marshall's Law!!!

[dbacks fan]

If you really must compare the two incidents, the 9/11 hijackers were previously radicalized zealots offered a chance to die for a "higher cause" by attacking innocent people at symbolic targets.

The Austin pilot, on the other hand, was someone who's world suddenly fell apart at the hands of the IRS and he targeted them specifically.

In that perspective, it's not terrorism but revenge.
It wouldnt surprise me though if the IRS wasnt fueling much of the "terrorism" rhetoric themselves.

What would they gain by calling it terrorism?

[patric]

What would they gain by calling it terrorism?

Funding, perhaps?
Broader powers, perhaps?

[Hometown]

Antigovernment Republican rhetoric has given tacit approval for the kind of incident you are discussing.  The Republican Party has swung much further to the right than the Democratic Party has ever swung to the left.  You Republicans are laying the groundwork for fascism.

So if the IRS goes after you, you are justified in attacking the U.S. Government?  You guys really are a bunch of crooks that can't stand any kind of oversight.

God save us from the Republicans.