Sean Penn: Still Biggest Hollywood Jacka$$

[guido911]

I wonder how many people have died at the hands of federal law enforcement in this country since 1999?

While I agree that the torture and degrading treatment is completely wrong, the rest of that list mirrors things that do happen or have happened in our own country just since 1980.

For example, we have federal oversight of union elections. Reagan busted the ATC union. Bush fired federal prosecutors whose political stance was not right wing enough. The Bush FBI subjected political opponents to harassment and groundless investigations. Reagan went on about "welfare queens" as a means to cut public support to poor people, who are generally strong Democratic supporters.

I continue down most of the list, and even provide links, but there's little point. You believe everything that is written on that page and seem to think it's OK when we do it but not OK when someone you don't like does it, so I'm probably just wasting energy typing. I'll stop now.

Edited to add: Also, my sentence was unclear. Mussolini and Hitler, they waged foreign wars of aggression. They massacred a significant fraction of their own population. Chavez has not done that, at least as of yet.

That was awesome how you both gave glancing attention to the torture and degrading treatment that is occurring in Venezuela under Chavez and turned this thread into a "bash former republican presidents thread" (funny how you ignored Clinton and the Waco incident, or the firing of the travel office staff).

Anyway, as for aggression, a Spanish judge is claiming Venezuela is collaborating with two terrorist organizations, ETA and FARC:

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Spanish-Judge-Accuses-Venezuela-Of-Collaborating-With-ETA-And-FARC-To-Kill-Colombias-President/Article/201003115563486?f=rss

Also:

Chavez's links to terrorism are already well documented. He supports Iran's Holocaust-denying president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and Iran-financed Hezbollah, the Lebanese terrorist group. He allowed Hezbollah and the Palestinian Hamas terrorists to open offices in his country's capital, Caracas.

http://www.capitalresearch.org/blog/2008/03/05/hugo-chavez-terrorist/

[nathanm]

You'll note that I never said he was a good guy, only that we have done most of the things on that list in our own country over the past 30 years. And more of it if we go back farther.

I don't like double standards.

[rwarn17588]

That was awesome how you both gave glancing attention to the torture and degrading treatment that is occurring in Venezuela under Chavez and turned this thread into a "bash former republican presidents thread" (funny how you ignored Clinton and the Waco incident, or the firing of the travel office staff).

If you're so against torture, why didn't you speak out against the well-documented torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib?

[Hoss]

If you're so against torture, why didn't you speak out against the well-documented torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib?

Ah yes, the double standard.  But Gweed will say 'if we do it, it ain't torture'.  Predictably.

[guido911]

I don't like double standards.

Ballsiest post of the decade nominee.

[Conan71]

So you guys are trying to justify the atrocities in Venezuela by saying: "We do it" or calling it a double-standard?

Wanna apply that as well to Idi Amin, Baby Doc Duvalier, Pinoche, Guevara, Castro, etc.?

[nathanm]

Ballsiest post of the decade nominee.

Care to explain your reasoning?

I'm not justifying, just saying that if you're going to lambast Chavez for things that happen in Venezuela, perhaps you should also be lambasting our own government for doing the same.

As I've said on many occasions, torture is never justified.

[guido911]

Care to explain your reasoning?

I'm not justifying, just saying that if you're going to lambast Chavez for things that happen in Venezuela, perhaps you should also be lambasting our own government for doing the same.

As I've said on many occasions, torture is never justified.

You and folks like you (they know who they are) are all about double standards. Obama gets a pass on just about every freakin lie he utters, such as that no more "rendition", military tribunals, and keeping Gitmo open. Bush got savaged daily. Hell he is getting ripped in this thread.

[rwarn17588]

So you guys are trying to justify the atrocities in Venezuela by saying: "We do it" or calling it a double-standard?

We're not trying to justify it. It's just that there were a number of people on this forum who pooh-poohed or even endorsed the torture by the U.S. government, then turn around and complain about some other country that's doing the same thing. There's a lot of inconsistency there. Not to mention it's not wise to throw stones in glass houses.

If you're going to make a moral stand, you'd better have your own morals in order.

[nathanm]

You and folks like you (they know who they are) are all about double standards. Obama gets a pass on just about every freakin lie he utters, such as that no more "rendition", military tribunals, and keeping Gitmo open. Bush got savaged daily. Hell he is getting ripped in this thread.

I'm just as upset about Obama doing those things as I was with Bush doing them. It's stupid.

It's not as if that's the first time I've written that on this forum, either.

Thus far, the only things Obama has done that I consider good things are opening a dialogue with other nations, thus bringing us closer to being friendly with them and not making things worse. (Aside from what I've already described as stupid: the surge in Afghanistan)

But hey, if you want to paint me with your broad brush of what some stereotypical "liberal" believes, that's your perogative. Hell, it's even understandable. That's what Fox News claims we're all about.

[Conan71]

We're not trying to justify it. It's just that there were a number of people on this forum who pooh-poohed or even endorsed the torture by the U.S. government, then turn around and complain about some other country that's doing the same thing. There's a lot of inconsistency there. Not to mention it's not wise to throw stones in glass houses.

If you're going to make a moral stand, you'd better have your own morals in order.

I don't ever recall reading anyone on here condoning what happened at Abu Ghraib.  Those responsible were tried and justifiably punished.  I can't think of anyone I know who condones police brutality either.  I still have no idea what any of that is doing in a thread about Hugo Chavez.

I have zero problem with severe coercion tecniques being used on enemy combatants if it manages to thwart more terror attacks on the U.S.  Anyone else happen to notice there's been a major slowdown in random attacks around the world (other than war zones in Iraq and Afghanistan and even those are improving) and not a single major attack anywhere close to the scale of 9/11 in over eight years now?  That didn't happen by sitting back and apologizing for being evil white devils to appease asshats who have zero conscience about torture themselves.  "Water boarding" became simply a catch-phrase to make the Bush administration and Congressional Republicans look like barbarians.  Don't be shocked to find out some day it (and worse types of torture) are still being done.

There's a huge difference between warfare and plain brutality.  Just ask the Kurds.

[guido911]

Chavez thanks Penn for defending him, adopts notion that people should be jailed for speaking out.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gULdDSQNMbw-z1DJugC6y1zAMJHwD9ECLKKO1

[guido911]

[DolfanBob]

Ok Guido. Help me out here. What the hell is that ?

[Hoss]

Ok Guido. Help me out here. What the hell is that ?

Part of Gweed's obsession with what he perceives as the 'liberal Hollywood elite'.