QuikTrip vs. Brookside's Urban Fabric

[PonderInc]

I know there have been a lot of references to the Brookside QT in other threads, but I couldn't find anything dedicated to the QT expansion in Brookside, so I'm starting fresh.

Starting April 1 (no joke), they are going to begin tearing down the former Lee's Bicycle shop to put in more parking and gas pumps for QT.  According to the QT clerk I talked to, there's no current plan to enlarge the store itself, or turn it into one of the next "generation" stores.  (While I was there, I heard another customer ask if it was going to be an "urban QuikTrip."  That would be nice, but keep dreaming...there's no such thing.)

"Call something paradise, kiss it goodbye..."

So Brookside suffers another blow thanks to "progress."  Another street-facing retail store (part of what makes Brookside unique and desireable in the first place) will go away, to be replaced by more asphalt and gas pumps (not unique or desireable to Brookside, the neighborhood, or the entertainment district).

PLANiTULSA specifically calls for keeping and enhancing our traditional streetscapes.  It describes a future for Tulsa that would be familiar to those who remember the past...similar to the best parts of Brookside, but better.  And it recommends placing parking in the rear, so shops and other buildings can be brought up to the sidewalks to make arterial streets more attractive and more pedestrian- and transit-friendly.

It does not recommend tearing down perfectly good street-facing retail buildings in thriving neighborhood/commercial districts to make room for more street facing parking and gas pumps.  QT is behind the curve and moving in the wrong direction.  One size does not fit all.  Not all neighborhoods are the same, and not all QTs should be the same.  Brookside is not I-44 or 71st and Memorial.  QT can't seem to recognize the difference....or realize that this difference is what makes Brookside so popular and successful in the first place.

Not that they care.  They just want to sell more gas.

Some day, I hope QT will live up to it's reputation as a "good citizen" and learn how to be a good neighbor, too.

[Conan71]

Ponder, I think the ordinances are written as:

"This applies to everyone but Quik Trip, Bumgarner, any member of the HBA, and any other TMAPC or INCOG bootlicker as we may see fit"

[RecycleMichael]

QT can't seem to recognize the difference....or realize that this difference is what makes Brookside so popular and successful in the first place.

But customer familiarity is one of the things that make QT so popular and successful in the first place.

[Conan71]

But customer familiarity is one of the things that make QT so popular and successful in the first place.

Same can be said for McDonald's, Sears, Wal-Mart, etc. but they are finding ways to fit into communities who are more restrictive as well.  I was incredibly impressed at how well the local Sears, Burger King and McD's fit in with the rest of Pagosa Springs, Co. when I was there a few weeks ago and they looked nothing like I'm used to seeing in other areas.

[patric]

Some day, I hope QT will live up to it's reputation as a "good citizen" and learn how to be a good neighbor, too.

I still cant get over the gall it took to submit false exhibits to the city for their 21st and Harvard store.  It's fixed now, and much better, but Ill bet it would have cost them a lot less money if they had not tried to slip non-conforming lighting past the neighborhood.

[Gaspar]

Well keep an eye on the west side of 36th pl to 38th & Peoria.   

[PonderInc]

Personally, I think what makes QT so successful is the customer service.  I know that when I walk in, everything will be clean, stocked, and I'll get through the checkout line in .065 seconds or less.  

But if all we do is fill Brookside with gas pumps and asphalt (hey, it's zoned commercial!), there will be no more Brookside to love...or to fuel (ah-hem) the local economy, housing market, customer base, etc.  We have to start making smarter decisions that are more far-sighted than this.  The current expansion may help QT make more money in the short term...but if Brookside continues to lose it's urban fabric and walkable charm, QT will suffer in the long term.

[RecycleMichael]

I am not taking QT's side on this store expansion in Brookside. Brookside is special and I would hope that every business would want to embrace that fact.

I am just pointing out that before QT, many people were afraid to go to a convenience store. I swear they invented the floor to ceiling window and well-lit parking lots that were more inviting and comfortable. They feel safe. When I go to other cities and their convenience stores they often don't. QT changed the way many people shop.

QT is building a new store at 21st and Memorial. When I bought my house in the neighborhood we had a grocery store there. Alberstson's walked away and left it vacant and an eyesore. Now we have to travel over two miles to grocery shop.

QT is being cheered for investing in my hood.  

[patric]

QT is building a new store at 21st and Memorial. When I bought my house in the neighborhood we had a grocery store there. Alberstson's walked away and left it vacant and an eyesore. Now we have to travel over two miles to grocery shop.

Not meaning to drift, but were you in the neighborhood when the lot on the NW corner was still Wendy's?

[Conan71]

Personally, I think what makes QT so successful is the customer service.  I know that when I walk in, everything will be clean, stocked, and I'll get through the checkout line in .065 seconds or less.  

But if all we do is fill Brookside with gas pumps and asphalt (hey, it's zoned commercial!), there will be no more Brookside to love...or to fuel (ah-hem) the local economy, housing market, customer base, etc.  We have to start making smarter decisions that are more far-sighted than this.  The current expansion may help QT make more money in the short term...but if Brookside continues to lose it's urban fabric and walkable charm, QT will suffer in the long term.

You grew up in Tulsa as well.  Certainly you remember when Crow Creek and Pei-Wei/Starbucks were gas stations and there were even more stations between there and 51st.  Granted, I want to see QT be neighborhood-centric, but if all we have to see is three clusters of gas pumps between 31st & 51st now (the two QT's and the Kum & Go or whatever is on the NE corner at 41st) that's a major improvement.  There's also been some less than stellar conversions of some ugly existing buildings into something else that still looks like huddah.

Point well taken, but it could be a lot worse and Brookside could still look like the service station capital of Tulsa. 

[SXSW]

A good compromise with QT at this point would be requiring a streetscape on their Peoria frontage similar to the rest of the district with lighting and street trees.  I hate to see the Lee's building go but I am glad they are downtown now.  I wish QT would've just moved down closer to 41st.

[TheArtist]

 Here is the e-mail I sent to a contact at the Brookside Business Association on Jan 8th....


 I am sure that you are aware by now that Lee's is moving and that QT intends to expand into that location.  While it great to see businesses expand, they should not do so in contravention of the Brookside Plan that so many have worked very hard to create and implement.  In order for Brookside to continue to  improve and flourish, it must at least maintain its pedestrian friendly nature, protecting the pedestrian friendly fabric it does have and with any new developments coming up to the sidewalks, etc.  The expansion of the QT will tear out some of this pedestrian friendly fabric in a section that is already a weak link/gap along Brookside, and will then build a structure that will further destroy any hoped for sense of connectedness and walk-ability.

 It will be very difficult in the future to tell any other chain, or big box retailer NO, to tearing out more good street fabric and building hurtful, car oriented parking lots and structures, if you allow this QT development to go forward.  You will have no grounds to stand on if you do not stand up against this QT development.  

  The Bomasada Development, while controversial, had both, positives that respected the aims of the Brookside Plan (density for instance) and negatives (lack of connectedness and pedestrian friendliness and height), but one could make an argument that with compromises the balance of the development would be a positive, reflecting the over all aims for Brookside.  This QT development in no way suits any of the goals the Brookside Plan lays out.  It actually does just the opposite.  The only "possible" argument that could be made is that it may increase car traffic, or convenience for people going to that business.  But this could be said for someone going in and tearing out some art galleries for instance and placing in a standard "Hobby Lobby" in another section of Brookside.  This is not the direction Brookside should want to go.

 There are reasons why Brookside is an attractive, successful, and cherished place.  There are reasons why strip malls and suburban, car oriented developments are also successful.  But they often follow very different development models that are contrary to each other.  In a primarily car oriented city, the temptation will always exist for businesses to come into areas like Brookside and supplant its pedestrian friendly nature with suburban, car oriented, developments.   Ignoring the Brookside Plan,  and turning a blind eye to one, your going to find it much harder in the future to get people to stand beside you when the next one happens, and the next... You might be surprised at how much negative impact "only one or two" seemingly small, negative changes, can have on an area like Brookside, changing its feel and nature.  One would have hoped that sometime in the future the Blockbuster building would be torn down and a new structure would go in, built up to the sidewalk, to help improve that section of Brookside.  A small gas station has its pluses and negatives.  One could hope that it too would eventually leave, but to both have it expand and tear out more good fabric in the process...  I hope you can see the harm this could do, not only now, but as a precedent for the future.  

Here is the response.......

Thank you so much for your input. You make very valid points. I would like to forward this to GT Bynum and Karen Keith along to other Brookside Businesses with your permission of course. Because QT is not a BBA member we are not kept as informed.   Are you okay with me forwarding?

I said yes.

I wonder where all the people are who were up in arms about the Bomasada Development? I am also curious as to what they are doing with the old Hollywood Video place? Looks like the wall that was facing the street will no longer be windows and will just be a blank wall, unless they cut windows in what they are doing now.  Does the Brookside Plan have absolutely no support or worth?

[spartanokc]

It's pretty ironic, as someone who closely follows the urban development in my favorite cities, how the ignoramus masses will come out en masse opposed to a good development if they're intimidated by it. And let's face it, people are against others having money. That's what I've decided, after I've seen this play out time after time. When you see a classy, upscale development like the derailed Bomasada project, people say it's out of character for the neighborhood--although if it's built to scale, who cares? People will oppose "rich people" moving in, but do people really care about development issues at the end of the day? As evidenced by this QT deal, or SandRidge in DT OKC, or wherever else urban fabric is whittled away for 21st-century suburban development, I don't think that people care at all.

Honestly the bottom line in urban development is scale, and there's no reason that a QT couldn't be done to scale..why can't the pumps face the cross street and the building face Peoria? That would be just as easy for ingress and egress, and probably more efficient even.

I remember when QT was the guilty party of a deal I hated a few years ago, also on Peoria. It would be pretty cool if they had restored the old Camelot Hotel and brought life back to an interesting piece of mid-century architecture. Just because Frank Lloyd Wright wasn't the architect, doesn't mean mid-century architecture isn't worth preserving. Now that it's apparent that the I-44 expansion is going to be to the south side of the current Skelly Drive right-of-way, so Camelot should have stayed in hindsight, and surely the brand new highway would have attracted investors. The old Camelot Hotel was torn down for nothing more than a QuikTrip at the end of the day, and as great as QT is compared to 7/11, that doesn't mean it's a suitable development replacement for a skyscraper, or even a midrise psuedo-historic hotel, nor should it be emphasized as a cornerstone in Brookside's new growth area.

The area between Whole Foods and the Starbucks represents an area where Brookside can become even better through new development, but scale is of the essence--and a QT throws that scale out of whack. The reason Brookside is well-liked is because the area is inviting, bustling, and well-hemmed in--when gas pumps replace buildings that meet the sidewalk, you lose 2 out of 3, and nobody wants to relax somewhere that's bustling and not inviting or exciting.

I will say though, to end this rant on a positive note..it was an ingenious idea in Tulsa, however it originated, to call certain areas "Brookside" and not "Peoria;" and "Cherry Street" and not "15th Street." This takes the psychological emphasis off of the street and puts it on the neighborhoods and the buildings. The street works for the building, not vice versa. I realize Cherry Street is the original name of 15th (I think? I'm no Tulsa expert, never would claim to be), and the idea likely didn't even cross their mind--but with these areas called Cherry Street and Brookside, rather than actually referring to the name of the major artery that cuts through the area, it SHOULD be pretty easy to grasp these urban concepts. You'd think..

[swake]

It's pretty ironic, as someone who closely follows the urban development in my favorite cities, how the ignoramus masses will come out en masse opposed to a good development if they're intimidated by it. And let's face it, people are against others having money. That's what I've decided, after I've seen this play out time after time. When you see a classy, upscale development like the derailed Bomasada project, people say it's out of character for the neighborhood--although if it's built to scale, who cares? People will oppose "rich people" moving in, but do people really care about development issues at the end of the day? As evidenced by this QT deal, or SandRidge in DT OKC, or wherever else urban fabric is whittled away for 21st-century suburban development, I don't think that people care at all.

Honestly the bottom line in urban development is scale, and there's no reason that a QT couldn't be done to scale..why can't the pumps face the cross street and the building face Peoria? That would be just as easy for ingress and egress, and probably more efficient even.

I remember when QT was the guilty party of a deal I hated a few years ago, also on Peoria. It would be pretty cool if they had restored the old Camelot Hotel and brought life back to an interesting piece of mid-century architecture. Just because Frank Lloyd Wright wasn't the architect, doesn't mean mid-century architecture isn't worth preserving. Now that it's apparent that the I-44 expansion is going to be to the south side of the current Skelly Drive right-of-way, so Camelot should have stayed in hindsight, and surely the brand new highway would have attracted investors. The old Camelot Hotel was torn down for nothing more than a QuikTrip at the end of the day, and as great as QT is compared to 7/11, that doesn't mean it's a suitable development replacement for a skyscraper, or even a midrise psuedo-historic hotel, nor should it be emphasized as a cornerstone in Brookside's new growth area.

The area between Whole Foods and the Starbucks represents an area where Brookside can become even better through new development, but scale is of the essence--and a QT throws that scale out of whack. The reason Brookside is well-liked is because the area is inviting, bustling, and well-hemmed in--when gas pumps replace buildings that meet the sidewalk, you lose 2 out of 3, and nobody wants to relax somewhere that's bustling and not inviting or exciting.

I will say though, to end this rant on a positive note..it was an ingenious idea in Tulsa, however it originated, to call certain areas "Brookside" and not "Peoria;" and "Cherry Street" and not "15th Street." This takes the psychological emphasis off of the street and puts it on the neighborhoods and the buildings. The street works for the building, not vice versa. I realize Cherry Street is the original name of 15th (I think? I'm no Tulsa expert, never would claim to be), and the idea likely didn't even cross their mind--but with these areas called Cherry Street and Brookside, rather than actually referring to the name of the major artery that cuts through the area, it SHOULD be pretty easy to grasp these urban concepts. You'd think..

It should be pointed out the NIMBYs didn't win with Bomasada, it was just a victim of the credit crunch with the recession, it remains approved and if the develop decides could be restarted at any time, if they are economically healthy enough, I have no idea if they are or aren't. I don't believe the site is for sale, that is somewhat telling.

And as for the Camelot, a friend of mine's grandfather built it, I loved it as a kid, I was very sad to see it go. But with the condition it was in, and the asbestos, it was never going to be brought back to life, and it empty it was hurting the area.

[SXSW]

QT has another store at 45th & Peoria at the south end Brookside.  Why not expand that store, which has a parking lot next to it, and leave the one at 36th 'as is' saving the Lee's building?