What is Going On in Arizona?

[custosnox]

Yeah I read that a few days ago in the AP, and expanded upon in Huff and other sites, however in the actual bill the only fines they are subject to is Jail costs and an initial assessment of $500 (and twice that if a repeat offender) if they are found to be in violation by an authorized federal agent.  Personally I think they should be required to pay their transportation back to their country of origin too.  Any monetary fine is silly.  Do you think we can collect this?  Perhaps we should send them home with an invoice.

There is no mention what so ever of 6 months detention.  It's very straight forward. I have a PDF of the bill if anyone is interested.  It's a quick read at 17 pages. 

I think the six months thing is from preverting the trasspassing law, and not actually having anything to do with this one.

[we vs us]

The racial profiling issue is a childish logic trap in this case. 

Who will they stop and search if not Hispanics?  The bill was created to address illegal immigration across the Mexican border.  It's not like the Vietnamese boat people are streaming across the desert in skiffs, are they?  

And if not race or color, what will the criteria be for stopping someone who "looks" illegal?  Shifty eyes?  Unkempt hair?  Shabby dresser?  Personally, I'd stop anyone wearing a White Sox cap, but that's my own biases coming out.

The problem with the law is that it's overwhelmed by its political context.  it says one thing but the fact of its existence contradicts it.

[custosnox]

Who will they stop and search if not Hispanics?  The bill was created to address illegal immigration across the Mexican border.  It's not like the Vietnamese boat people are streaming across the desert in skiffs, are they? 

And if not race or color, what will the criteria be for stopping someone who "looks" illegal?  Shifty eyes?  Unkempt hair?  Shabby dresser?  Personally, I'd stop anyone wearing a White Sox cap, but that's my own biases coming out.

The problem with the law is that it's overwhelmed by its political context.  it says one thing but the fact of its existence contradicts it.

So an exception to illegal immigration should be made in Arizona because the vast majority of them are of a specific decent, therefore making it racial?

The bill says reasonable suspicion, not "looks" illegal.  To really hold up in court a cop will have to show what the suspicion was, and it will have to be something viable.  Something along the lines of "I pulled him over for speeding, and he was unable to produce license, insurance, or registration for the vehicle," or "after breaking up the disturbance I collected identification from those involved and found this one to appear to be a forgery because the state seal was wrong on it".  Doesn't mean that is how it will actually happen, but how it is supposed to happen.

[Gaspar]

Who will they stop and search if not Hispanics?  The bill was created to address illegal immigration across the Mexican border.  It's not like the Vietnamese boat people are streaming across the desert in skiffs, are they?  

And if not race or color, what will the criteria be for stopping someone who "looks" illegal?  Shifty eyes?  Unkempt hair?  Shabby dresser?  Personally, I'd stop anyone wearing a White Sox cap, but that's my own biases coming out.

The problem with the law is that it's overwhelmed by its political context.  it says one thing but the fact of its existence contradicts it.

You do have a point.  I assume that a very large percentage of illegal aliens from Mexico are Hispanic.

If I were a legal immigrant who worked hard to go through the proper channels to get my work papers or citizenship, I would be proud to display that information to an officer if asked.  I would also be quite angry at those who choose to sully the reputation of an entire culture of hard working people by breaking the law.

When I'm driving home at night and have to go through a sobriety check stop, I'm thrilled to provide my license and insurance to the officers and I thank them for keeping me safe. 

[Cats Cats Cats]

I agree.  However, we have to engage in some cross-over and cooperation between federal and state law enforcement. 

That isn't exactly what the law says, however given that the states end up paying the burden they should have the right to question people when arrested and get them deported if they aren't legal.

[custosnox]

While a bit over the top, here is a joke that someone posted on FB that does have a few valid points to it.

I Am Moving Can You Help?

Dear President Obama:
I'm planning to move my family and extended family into Mexico for my health, and I would like to ask you to assist me.

We're planning to simply walk across the border from the U.S. Into Mexico, and we'll need your help to make a few arrangements.

We plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws.

I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here. So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Calderon, that I'm on my way over?

Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:

1. Free medical care for my entire family.

2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.

3. Please print all Mexican government forms in English.

4. I want my grandkids to be taught Spanish by English-speaking (bi-lingual) teachers.

5. Tell their schools they need to include classes on American culture and history.

6. I want my grandkids to see the American flag on one of the flag poles at their school.

7. Please plan to feed my grandkids at school for both breakfast and lunch.

8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.

9. I do plan to get a car and drive in Mexico , but, I don't plan to purchase car insurance, and I probably won't make any special effort to learn local traffic laws.

10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from their president to leave me alone, please be sure that every patrol car has at least one English-speaking officer.

11. I plan to fly the U.S. Flag from my house top, put U S. Flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.

12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, or have any labor or tax laws enforced on any business I may start.

13. Please have the president tell all the Mexican people to be extremely ice and never say critical things about me or my family, or about the strain we might place on their economy.

14. I want to receive free food stamps.

15. Naturally, I'll expect free rent subsidies.

16. I'll need Income tax credits so although I don't pay Mexican Taxes, I'll receive money from the government.

17. Please arrange it so that the Mexican Gov't pays $4,500 to help me buy a new car.

18. Oh yes, I almost forgot, please enroll me free into the Mexican Social Security program so that I'll get a monthly income in retirement.

I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all his people who walk over to theU.S. From Mexico .

I am sure that President Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely. Thank you so much for your kind help.

You're the man!

[custosnox]

Here is something else that seems to be making the spotlight that is related... loosely

[nathanm]

I would be proud to display that information to an officer if asked.

I like your obsequiousness. For someone who claims government tyranny, you sure seem not to mind it.

Would you also be proud to be carrying your green card with you and get your wallet stolen. What would you do if you ended up having an encounter with a police officer prior to getting it replaced? (which, by the way, is a very long and arduous process that often takes months)

I don't think you'd enjoy sitting in jail while they figured out whether or not you were legally present. Heck, you might end up like one of those citizens who spent months or years waiting to be deported because ICE didn't believe them when they claimed they were citizens. (this happens pretty regularly)

custosnox, I could go through that "FB" thing and debunk it almost to a point, but I think you can do your own research and find out that illegal immigrants do pay taxes, do pay for social security they never get to use, and only rarely get any sort of welfare or subsidy. (aside from visits to the ER and their children, who are often citizens, getting to go to public school like everyone else) It helps to keep in mind that the vast majority of illegal immigrants didn't actually cross the border illegally. Most of them came in on a temporary visa and never left. One part of legally immigrating is that you can't go on the public dole without getting deported.

Ironically, a lot of the things in that list that the author is complaining about are caused directly by us making it impossible for illegal immigrants to do. We make it impossible to get licensed, so auto insurance is priced out of reach of the vast majority. We make it impossible to get the necessary numbers to pay taxes, so they either don't pay them at all or (more commonly) make up a SSN. Then they end up both overpaying in income tax every year because they don't get a refund, yet we complain about them not paying taxes.

Moreover, a bunch of that list is just racist in general. It assumes that all people who don't speak english well are illegal immigrants. Nevermind that it's nearly impossible for someone over the age of 40 to learn another language well enough to speak it without a thick accent, making it sound to a lot of people like they don't speak it well.

[Conan71]

You do have a point.  I assume that a very large percentage of illegal aliens from Mexico are Hispanic.

If I were a legal immigrant who worked hard to go through the proper channels to get my work papers or citizenship, I would be proud to display that information to an officer if asked.  I would also be quite angry at those who choose to sully the reputation of an entire culture of hard working people by breaking the law.

When I'm driving home at night and have to go through a sobriety check stop, I'm thrilled to provide my license and insurance to the officers and I thank them for keeping me safe. 

Basically your license is your proof of citizenship, I don't have a problem with it either.  Why would any legal citizen, resident alien, or guest worker object to showing their proof of citizenship, visa, or green card?  I don't go anywhere without my passport when I travel abroad so I can properly identify myself as a visitor of that country should I be asked for any legal reason.  Why do we think we need to lower the standard here.  It's considered a matter of national security in virtually every other nation.

[Gaspar]

I like your obsequiousness. For someone who claims government tyranny, you sure seem not to mind it.

Would you also be proud to be carrying your green card with you and get your wallet stolen. What would you do if you ended up having an encounter with a police officer prior to getting it replaced? (which, by the way, is a very long and arduous process that often takes months)

I don't think you'd enjoy sitting in jail while they figured out whether or not you were legally present. Heck, you might end up like one of those citizens who spent months or years waiting to be deported because ICE didn't believe them when they claimed they were citizens. (this happens pretty regularly)

Don't make things up.  You are fingerprinted when issued a green card.  Takes around 10-20 minutes to verify dactyloscopy green card status. 

[nathanm]

Basically your license is your proof of citizenship, I don't have a problem with it either.  Why would any legal citizen, resident alien, or guest worker object to showing their proof of citizenship, visa, or green card?  I don't go anywhere without my passport when I travel abroad so I can properly identify myself as a visitor of that country should I be asked for any legal reason.  Why do we think we need to lower the standard here.  It's considered a matter of national security in virtually every other nation.

You know, even 30 years ago people would have called you a "frakking commie" for that attitude. 65 or 70 years ago they would have called you a "god damned Nazi". "Papers, please" is something that authoritarian countries do, not countries that believe in the fundamental freedom of movement as we do. What next? We set up immigration stations at each state border?

Speaking of your license being your proof of citizenship, the law specifically states that Arizona driver's licenses are proof of citizenship. What if I go to Arizona and get asked for my papers? I can't say I generally take my passport on my travels around our nation. Under Arizona law, I will have no proof of citizenship. Will I be detained until someone can supply proof of my citizenship? Probably not, unless they're focusing on Canadians that day (I'm white as a sheet). What if my SO's father (who is a citizen, but is brown and has a pretty thick accent) ends up in the same situation?

Also, reasonable suspicion merely means that the officer can articulate some reason for believing you are illegally present. It doesn't have to be a good reason, or even very understandable to others, just an articulable reason, at least under federal law. "He's brown" would actually suffice, although it might get the law overturned as unconstitutional on an as applied basis (federal law outlaws racism, the supremacy clause prevents state law from overriding federal law).

Gaspar, you'd be OK with being detained for 20 minutes (probably longer, given that you're not being detained by ICE agents, but local police)?

Moreover, I don't recall being fingerprinted as a natural born citizen. There are a lot of natural born citizens of Mexican descent in the southwest. Hell, a bunch of the native americans around there could easily be mistaken for Mexican. Do we have some sort of magic citizenship detector I don't know about?

[Conan71]

Ironically, a lot of the things in that list that the author is complaining about are caused directly by us making it impossible for illegal immigrants to do. We make it impossible to get licensed, so auto insurance is priced out of reach of the vast majority. We make it impossible to get the necessary numbers to pay taxes, so they either don't pay them at all or (more commonly) make up a SSN. Then they end up both overpaying in income tax every year because they don't get a refund, yet we complain about them not paying taxes.

Why is it impossible?  Because these are rights given to legal immigrants and citizens.  Illegal means illegal.  What is so hard to grasp about this.  It's not a matter of racism, that's akin to saying our national immigration laws are racist.  The simple matter is there are people in this country who want immigration laws enforced because they serve a purpose in protecting legal U.S. citizens and to help limit the pressure put on social services.  Yes, we all know some illegal immigrants pay payroll taxes (that's only done by identity fraud, fyi) and direct welfare or ssi checks are not handed out to illegal immigrants.  If you don't have some method to deal with orderly immigration you wind up with social and criminal issues which are undesireable in most societies.

[Conan71]

You know, even 30 years ago people would have called you a "frakking commie" for that attitude. 65 or 70 years ago they would have called you a "god damned Nazi". "Papers, please" is something that authoritarian countries do, not countries that believe in the fundamental freedom of movement as we do. What next? We set up immigration stations at each state border?

Speaking of your license being your proof of citizenship, the law specifically states that Arizona driver's licenses are proof of citizenship. What if I go to Arizona and get asked for my papers? I can't say I generally take my passport on my travels around our nation. Under Arizona law, I will have no proof of citizenship. Will I be detained until someone can supply proof of my citizenship? Probably not, unless they're focusing on Canadians that day (I'm white as a sheet). What if my SO's father (who is a citizen, but is brown and has a pretty thick accent) ends up in the same situation?

Also, reasonable suspicion merely means that the officer can articulate some reason for believing you are illegally present. It doesn't have to be a good reason, or even very understandable to others, just an articulable reason, at least under federal law. "He's brown" would actually suffice, although it might get the law overturned as unconstitutional on an as applied basis (federal law outlaws racism, the supremacy clause prevents state law from overriding federal law).

Gaspar, you'd be OK with being detained for 20 minutes (probably longer, given that you're not being detained by ICE agents, but local police)?

Moreover, I don't recall being fingerprinted as a natural born citizen. There are a lot of natural born citizens of Mexican descent in the southwest. Hell, a bunch of the native americans around there could easily be mistaken for Mexican. Do we have some sort of magic citizenship detector I don't know about?

Really?  I was stopped for speeding 30 years ago and never thought once about challenging the trooper who wanted my license.  Next time you get stopped, tell the Trooper or other LEO he's a jackboot Nazi and see what happens.

You are all over the hyperbole today, aren't you?  An Arizona officer will accept your state issued license as a proof of U.S. citizenship, I'm quite certain of that.  Why are you defending illegal acts in the first place?

[nathanm]

Why are you defending illegal acts in the first place?

Well, for one, mere presence here isn't criminal, federally. Secondly, I think our immigration law is causing more problems than it is solving, specifically regarding the whole taxation thing and the licensing/insurance thing. The Arizona law at bar is even worse. US Citizens should not be forced to prove their citizenship in our own country. That's what's jackbooted about it.

I have no problem with licensing drivers, so I don't consider it an unreasonable request when an officer asks me for my license. I would consider it unreasonable if I were merely a passenger in a vehicle that had been stopped.

Furthermore, there are quite a few states that don't now require or still have licenses issued prior to the requirement to prove citizenship to obtain a driver's license. If you hail from one of those states, happen to look brown, and don't have your passport with you, what are you to do when an Arizona officer requests that you prove your citizenship?

I find it shocking that the ones here who most go on about personal freedom seem to be wholly in favor of being forced to prove their citizenship at any time of an officer's choosing.

[Gaspar]

nathanm,

Cool down dude.  No matter what the media wants you to think there is nothing alarming in this legislation.  No new laws or criminal penalties.  It's just giving local police the power to recognize federal law, and refer criminals to federal authority.

It seem that it's the federal law that you have a problem with.  

Strictly speaking Arizona drivers licenses are not proof of citizenship. They have nothing to do with citizenship, and no where in Arizona law does it state that they are.