Should Inmates Be Allowed To Vote?

[we vs us]

I stand corrected.  They forfeit MANY of the privileges of our constitution, because access to those privileges make them a danger to others.  The privilege of voting would certainly be considered so.  Lets explore the scenario. . .

The incarcerated would certainly vote for whomever promised the most lenient in sentencing, and whoever promoted the most ineffective justices.   Like most voting blocks prisoners would focus on the politician that offered them the most.

From a politician's standpoint, the nearly 3 million incarcerated individuals would represent a MAJOR voting block.  Why?. . .Because they are a, pardon the pun, captive audience who, with little else to do, would turn up to vote by a margin of almost 100%. 

Now, I'm not saying all politicians pander. . . Wait. . .Yes I am!  Some politicians would go on prison tours (through all 57 states  ) and even make supreme court appointments based on gaining that voting block of 3 million.

We would gain interest groups, lobbies and powerful politicians beholden to criminals and the organizations that they belong to and support.  Pardons would be handed out, not based on merit or injustice, but as party campaign teasers to satisfy The League of Felonious Voters, or the Registered Sex Offenders of America. 

I would also guarantee that the politics of prison and the various gangs would be happy to offer "counseling" to any individual that votes against gang/party rule.

Giving inmates the right to vote is just about as stupid as the previous suggestions to give illegal aliens and the resident's of other countries the right to vote in US elections.

To which I say: so? You've got a fantastic timeline there, some parts of which are eminently plausible, but it's still not a good enough reason to deny a group the vote.  The fact that you (or I) don't like the possible consequences of extending a group suffrage simply isn't compelling enough reason to do so (cf. black civil rights, and/or the extension of the vote to women in the '20's).

Just so you don't pre-empt me with a Guido-style appeal to authority, no, I haven't read the case law and didn't complete -- or actually even attend -- law school, so I can't cite Supreme Court decisions specific to felons.  I can tell you, though, that it's well within our historic tradition of expanding -- rather than rescinding -- rights to allow this to happen.

Here's an interesting if slightly dated read on some history of felon voting rights:

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1789/why-cant-felons-vote

[Conan71]

We disagree. That doesn't mean I'm "driving the wrong end of the nail," it just means we place different weight on certain values. My opinions are offered in good faith (most of the time, on rare occasion I am contrary in the hopes of making people critically evaluate their positions) and are almost always based in reason and logic. I simply don't believe that it's moral to deny some people basic rights that I enjoy. Sorry you don't see it that way. To be honest, I sometimes have to remind myself that your positions (and a few others on this board) are thoughtfully held and not just the reactionary default that they sometimes reflect.

I like to think we're mostly all above the level of the folks who are Republicans because daddy was a Republican, are Democrats because daddy was a Democrat, or otherwise hold opinions only because that's what they grew up with.

Anyway, back closer to the topic: you're right, it wouldn't be that easy, although tossing people in SuperMax for the remainder of their sentence might be some deterrent to violent behavior on the inside. Combine that with a nice carrot and we might have something.

Surely we can agree that the current situation is untenable. Violence in prison is increasing recidivism rates which is driving the cost of the criminal justice system to an unsustainable level.

I probably shouldn't put words in your mouth, but I'm assuming you've not been a victim of a violent crime, nor anyone particularly close to you.  Otherwise, I think you'd have a different view on punishment.

Who do you have in prison?  Criminals.  They engage in criminal behavior because many of them have social and mental problems which simply are not curable, or they have addictions which are another form of mental illness which is treatable, however many addicts never choose to make that change.  You cannot change another person, the desire to change has to come from within.

In prison, you have anti-social personalities, manipulative personalities, sociopaths, psychopaths, schizophrenics, etc.  I'm not spouting off adjectives, these are real diagnoses of large portions of the violent offenders in prison.  They don't play well on the outside so they sure as heck don't play well on the inside.  These are the people whom have not responded to any sort of of intervention or treatment in the past, that is why they are there. 

My best friend's brother has spent the majority of his adult life in and out of prison.  One of my cycling teammates spent nine years in prison for drug dealing (the first fellow I mentioned is still a worthless piece of crap and simply biding his time until he does something else to get sent back.  The second one has flourished, has a great job, nice home, and nice wife and won't be a repeat offender).  The biggest difference is example 1 doesn't give a smile and he's a sociopath.  Example 2 wanted to change and didn't want to lose his freedom again.  He's a total flaming conservative as well and believes in harsh punishment for wrong-doers.  From discussions with both of them, I've got a pretty good understanding of how the "social" system works inside the walls and not from a filtered hyperbole standpoint.

As far as reported rapes, how many men want to report they have been raped?  It's not a sexual gratification issue near as much as humiliation and domination as is usually the case in heterosexual rapes.  If you isolated all prisoners to prevent prisoner on prisoner crimes, you would increase the costs of incarceration.  That and you'd be seeing a myriad of lawsuits due to the isolation which would be required.  FWIW, I've never met an ex-con who admits to have been raped.  That always happened to other people. 

Quite honestly, there are a lot of people who will tell you that the horrors of prison are as good a deterrent effect as there is against crime.  Just so you know my thoughts are not lock-step Republican on this: I'm anti-death penalty.  I think that's too easy a sentence for one thing, a couple of other reasons are the incredibly high costs for death row inmates (to enjoy endless appeals, the additional security of death row, single celling) and the number of wrongly convicted men and women on death row.  I became a convert after reading John Grisham's "An Innocent Man" and Dennis Fritz book (one of the subjects of Grisham's book).  I believe as a national average, each death row prisoner costs taxpayers five times what a general population inmate costs per year in a maximum security prison.

I believe your intentions are good in your arguments, I simply don't think you have quite as much insight as to why liberties are stripped from those who violate other's liberties and who many of the violent offenders are.

[nathanm]

Your screed would mean a lot more to me if it were true that most people who are in prison were there for violent crimes. Thing is, most people are there for drug and property crime.

If you've got better data on prison rape, I'd be glad to hear it, as there isn't a lot of good data out there since, as you mentioned, people are reluctant to report it.

I'm not at all saying that violent criminals shouldn't be locked up barring some sort of extenuating circumstance. There are cases where people are violent criminals under the letter, but not the spirit of the law, like in states without the make my day law who defend themselves against robbers, and I don't think those sort of folks should necessarily end up in prison. But yes, in general people who use violence ought to go to jail.

And FWIW, I've known a fair number of folks who spent time in Arkansas prisons. A few on drug charges and a few for property crimes. (Living with a guy who managed a pizza place, you will meet all kinds) I haven't talked to them extensively about their experiences, though. I get the feeling they aren't too interested in reliving the experience, so I try to let it lie despite my curiosity.

I want to make prison a place where I wouldn't feel bad sending someone to if I was to find myself battered again. It should be punishment, it should not be the corrupt cesspool it tends to be. It should be a place where most people have at least a chance of coming out rehabilitated, and not only the exceptional. We drastically underfund prisons and don't give the prisoners a chance to learn a trade or just expand their mind and we're surprised when recidivism rates are so high.

It also doesn't help that we have very little help for people with mental issues and instead wait until they inevitably have an episode that usually ends in violence and the ill person being locked up. More than just about anything about our criminal justice system, that pisses me off. I need to go take a shower before that works me into a rage. My best friend's father is a schizophrenic, who is perfectly nice when he's on his meds, but is rather unstable without them. Once someone helped him navigate the system so he could get veteran's benefits and SSDI, he's been on a relatively even keel. He still has to stay in a residential facility, but he's relatively autonomous and his family members can check him out basically whenever as long as they promise to keep him properly fed with drugs. Most people in his position end up in prison or homeless on the street.

Fixing that problem would probably also have a great benefit in making prison a less evil place.

[Conan71]

Nathan, you missed your calling, you should be a warden. Lots of iealism in that post which won't meet with reality in the fun house but you can certainly try.

[nathanm]

Nathan, you missed your calling, you should be a warden. Lots of iealism in that post which won't meet with reality in the fun house but you can certainly try.

I take it you don't think it's possible to improve conditions in prisons? If that's true, perhaps we should work on at least separating the violent criminals from the nonviolent so their bad habits don't rub off. It's certainly true that there are some people, especially lifers, for whom no punishment will alter their behavior. Maybe a carrot would work, I don't know, but if not, that's what a supermax is for.

[Conan71]

I take it you don't think it's possible to improve conditions in prisons? If that's true, perhaps we should work on at least separating the violent criminals from the nonviolent so their bad habits don't rub off. It's certainly true that there are some people, especially lifers, for whom no punishment will alter their behavior. Maybe a carrot would work, I don't know, but if not, that's what a supermax is for.

We do, it's called maximum security, medium security, and minimum security.  Trust me Nathan, you aren't the first person to think of this.  Prison isn't supposed to be Shangri-La, it's where we send those who take other's liberties (and property), those who can't function in society, and those who cheat the government.

I think Chief Dead Horse is about to pay us a visit...