Another East Village Proposal

[Nic Nac]

Strange that the hole knocked in this building has been there for over a month.  Perhaps Formaation just secured a lease on the space and the owner has not yet repaired it.  Otherwise.... seems like a bad sign if something this obvious is left unattended.  I'll be interested to find out more about the individuals involved in the proposed development.  

Formaation's offices

[SXSW]

It looked like they were renovating the inside of the retail space at the east end of the building.  And it appeared to me that Formaation takes up the west end, possibly two floors, of this building.  

[sgrizzle]

It looked like they were renovating the inside of the retail space at the east end of the building.  And it appeared to me that Formaation takes up the west end, possibly two floors, of this building.  

This building was on sale on craigslist for awhile and that listing showed that the second floor was a residence.

[waterboy]

Yes, I was wondering why this didn't have more buzz around it on the forum...it has great potential.  Although, as my HS coach used to say "Potential is just a fancy word for hasn't done anything yet".  I think this is why there is less buzz...we have seen so many grand plans/schemes this one is pretty much run of the mill, so why get excited?

I do like the "Talaas" name, although I believe Waterboy would argue with the spelling/origin of the name of Tulsa.  He enlightened me on the rafting trip last year and I have already forgotten...but it had something to do with a combination of 2 Native American word for "caving in" (Tahl) and "riverbanks" (oosa)...or something.  Put em together = Tahl-oosa = Tulsa once it is "anglo-ized" (you get the idea).  Speak up Waterboy and correct me...I found that very intresting (so interesting I remeber bits and pieces only...).

Sorry, I just got around to reading this thread. Flintco is owned by a Creek Indian woman who no doubt believes that Tulsa is named by her tribe. I don't want to make her or other believers in the Creek Council legend mad. Their story is as good as any other! However, years ago someone did some research (I do have it in the files....somewhere) and found a more plausible history of our city's name.

The Cherokee were here before the Creeks (circa 1812-1840) and thus had their own words describing the area. I show people what the river banks look like on this stretch of the Arkansas, especially around the sharp turn it makes by Newblock Park. The banks are steep and frequently cave in to the river carrying trees with them. The area was described by them as "Chusto Talasah", pronounced Oosto Tah la sah. That translates to "river of caving banks" or "place on the river where the banks cave". It easily slurs to Talsah or Tulsa. Much easier than evolving from Tallasee, then Tulsee, then Tulsa many years later.  Historians discarded this theory preferring to believe that the Civil War battle at Chusto Talasah on Bird Creek was what the Cherokees referred to when using these words. However, this research asserts, it was the white man at the time who misintrepreted a description of a river feature rather than the name of a river itself. The battle at Bird Creek occurred then, "on the river where the banks are caving".

Jt, are you and your friend ready to do another trip?

[Nic Nac]

Thanks for sharing that history waterboy.  Makes sense and very interesting.

[spartanokc]

I would love to see some "old school" type rail transport, especially if they had some deco flair lol.  The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glance. Tulsa can do better.

Well it's a lot easier to put some old kitsch on rails and call it a transit system than it is to pull off modern streetcar. Most people drive newer cars, not refurbished Model Ts..transit systems should be the same way with few exceptions like the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans.

Although, of course "The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glace. Tulsa can do better."

Are old-timey streetcars more likely to fill in practical transit purposes as opposed to modern streetcar? That's the bottom line. A streetcar system is a streetcar system, and in most urbanists eyes, the modern ones are a bigger boon than historic replica ones, not to mention more efficient. As someone currently fighting to save a historic bldg in OKC, I really don't think "new development" needs to have a historic motif.

[Hoss]

Well it's a lot easier to put some old kitsch on rails and call it a transit system than it is to pull off modern streetcar. Most people drive newer cars, not refurbished Model Ts..transit systems should be the same way with few exceptions like the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans.

Although, of course "The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glace. Tulsa can do better."

Are old-timey streetcars more likely to fill in practical transit purposes as opposed to modern streetcar? That's the bottom line. A streetcar system is a streetcar system, and in most urbanists eyes, the modern ones are a bigger boon than historic replica ones, not to mention more efficient. As someone currently fighting to save a historic bldg in OKC, I really don't think "new development" needs to have a historic motif.

But that's you as an OKC native.  Tulsans, we like that stuff.  Just because it looks old doesn't mean it IS old.

[swake]

Well it's a lot easier to put some old kitsch on rails and call it a transit system than it is to pull off modern streetcar. Most people drive newer cars, not refurbished Model Ts..transit systems should be the same way with few exceptions like the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans.

Although, of course "The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glace. Tulsa can do better."

Are old-timey streetcars more likely to fill in practical transit purposes as opposed to modern streetcar? That's the bottom line. A streetcar system is a streetcar system, and in most urbanists eyes, the modern ones are a bigger boon than historic replica ones, not to mention more efficient. As someone currently fighting to save a historic bldg in OKC, I really don't think "new development" needs to have a historic motif.

You are wrong. Neither city has even remotely the downtown population density that would require or even make slight use of real railed mass transit within the city core. And won't have for many years, if ever. Your generic light rail train that's depicted would actually probably see less ridership than a mostly decorative nostalgic system that would have aesthetic and tourist appeal. And the nostalgic system can still have use as a people mover between two specific points within the core. Both will be almost entirely empty, all the time. I'd rather one that helps create more a sense of place than whatever is depicted in that marketing sham of a photo.
My money is on the rail system in OKC being the victim of "less than anticipated MAPs revenue" anyway. The OKC chamber wanted a new $200 million convention center, and by god they are going to get it, everything else is last, if ever with current tax collections.  Rail was an item tacked on to buy votes. You watch, cost overruns on other projects and low tax collections will kill it. Or at the least delay it 15 years.

[TheArtist]

Well it's a lot easier to put some old kitsch on rails and call it a transit system than it is to pull off modern streetcar. Most people drive newer cars, not refurbished Model Ts..transit systems should be the same way with few exceptions like the St. Charles Streetcar in New Orleans.

Although, of course "The ones OKC has proposed are uninspired and don't warrant a second glace. Tulsa can do better."

Are old-timey streetcars more likely to fill in practical transit purposes as opposed to modern streetcar? That's the bottom line. A streetcar system is a streetcar system, and in most urbanists eyes, the modern ones are a bigger boon than historic replica ones, not to mention more efficient. As someone currently fighting to save a historic bldg in OKC, I really don't think "new development" needs to have a historic motif.

My apologies for the "Tulsa can do better" thing.  I should have meant it as in "it would be better imo, for Tulsa".  I may have an opinion about OKC, but ultimately it should do what it thinks is best and head in the direction it wants to.  Having lived in Tulsa most of my life and wanting to have a hand in shaping how parts of it look, feel, and function,,, I would like to see our mass transit options either be ultra modern and very stylish in that way, or retro looking and of course my own bias is for whatever direction have a deco look to it.  I think having the taxis, buses and rail options, especially any that service downtown, have a retro deco feel to them would really help create a chic, stylish and definitely unique sense of place for Tulsa. It could even be as simple as having say a new vehicle be painted black and have silver deco pin-striping and art deco lettering.  There is a lot of new stuff out there, some of it has a deco feel to it, some of it doesnt.  If ya have the chance to choose, I would hope Tulsa would choose something decoish lol.

Look at this truck, its new, but imo very deco...



Did a quick look for some new rail options.  This one isnt deco at first blush, but look at those doors.  They have some neat curves that could be further emphasized and made to look very deco with some simple lines painted around them, add some other deco pinstripes and some deco lettering... and voila, contemporary, retro deco.


Even the little T-Town trolley we have now could be made to fit with a black paint job and the right accents and lettering.  Rather than looking like any other typical green trolley.  It could be made to be more memorable and "Tulsa classy and unique".

Its things like this that , help make a place feel different.  When you go some place that has paid attention to such things, it gives you the sense that you are some place thats a step above and special. Like the places you go when your on vacation lol. Wouldnt it be nice if our downtown felt like that.

[TURobY]

I actually don't think that the train pictured is all that bad for OKC. For me, OKC's designs (especially with the new Devon Tower) seem to draw on modernism/futurism in design. The train pictured definately fits in that scope. I certainly wish OKC the best on their continued development, and I certainly hope that they are able to continue on their development paths.

For Tulsa, being a distinct city with our own distinct development patterns and history, it shouldn't be a surprise that our development "tastes" are different from OKC. I would second that idea that our streetcars should take on a more "deco" feel. After all, our Art Deco architecture is a big selling point for us. Having a cohesive design plan makes for a more cohesive experience; it is great for livability and tourism.

[SXSW]

I actually don't think that the train pictured is all that bad for OKC. For me, OKC's designs (especially with the new Devon Tower) seem to draw on modernism/futurism in design. The train pictured definately fits in that scope. I certainly wish OKC the best on their continued development, and I certainly hope that they are able to continue on their development paths.

For Tulsa, being a distinct city with our own distinct development patterns and history, it shouldn't be a surprise that our development "tastes" are different from OKC. I would second that idea that our streetcars should take on a more "deco" feel. After all, our Art Deco architecture is a big selling point for us. Having a cohesive design plan makes for a more cohesive experience; it is great for livability and tourism.

I think you can do something that respects the Deco architectural tradition while also being modern.  Something streamlined like the red-gray streetcar Artist posted would be very cool and fit in well downtown.  I'll add that will a 2-way 2nd Street streetcar is a great idea I think it would work better and cover more ground to have it go west on 3rd and then east on 2nd. 

[OurTulsa]

I love rail transport but I'm not feelin' the street car on 2nd St. idea.  Outside of occassional ridership during events at the BOK/Conv.Ctr. why is anyone going to ride it assuming it doesn't have 2-5 minute headways - which wouldn't be close to feasible?  If I have to wait 10-15 or more minutes walking out of the Mayo/Crown Plaza/Williams/new apartment at 4th and Cheyenne why would I wait and pay for a very short streetcar ride when I can walk and be in the BD/EV in 10 minutes. 

A streetcar's going to have to connect two activity nodes that aren't easily/quickly accessible on foot and I would rather see it run along a route that had some serious infill potential to feed the line while also serving existing activity.  Run it up and down Beantown and Boulder Avs from the River/Vetrans Park to Brady - shifting over to BD/EV from Boston.

It just doesn't make sense to run a rail down 2nd St. for a very short distance.  It's too easy to walk 7/8 blocks across downtown.

[TURobY]

More development plans for the area:



Tulsa World: Three Proposal Vying For Parcels

The Land Legacy and KMO Development Group want to buy two of the five parcels from the authority to create an urban park and a loft project.

The Ross Group is looking to buy three of the five parcels to construct a building to house its 100 employees and provide parking.

The third proposal, by Formaation LLC, is for a much larger project that would include the purchase of four of the five parcels.

[spartanokc]

Swake, Art Deco was initially a very modern style. Today it is reminiscent of the 20s and 30s, one of the most interesting and vivid periods in American history in which we had one of the most vivid architectural styles. To this day, Art Deco remains very popular for new construction of condos along coastal regions..and I hate all of that. It's not the same. Here in Oklahoma, we could recreate Art Deco much more tastefully, and we do on occasion..

I think we're better off focused on restoring the existing Art Deco we have and pioneering new architectural styles for what we don't have yet, such as the BOK Center--which draws on what represents Tulsa, while being something new altogether. I think streamlined and modernist would be pretty cool gliding on rails in front of the BOK Center and the City Hall Borg Cube.

I loved the image of the Toronto streetcar you posted, artist. I think such simply-designed streetcars transcend the typical boundaries between certain styles and others, and virtually every can appreciate that. Less bickering over historic versus modern. But if we're talking about restored historic streetcars, I am always going to have to pass on that. Our transit systems shouldn't look like they were built in 1900, and if we sell that as a tourist trap, well why even waste so much money on kitsch as to do that in the first place.

Swake brought up some negative concerns as to who would ride streetcar in OKC or Tulsa. Well the reality is that streetcar has a beneficial ability to entice development and density within a 3-4 block radius of a single track, and a wider radius with proximity to a double track. This ability for urban environments to develop up to the streetcar, especially if you go with a modern streetcar look that has excellent viability for real transit needs, makes streetcar the best choice for starter systems due to its relative low cost to build and operate and how easily downtowns can adapt to it, in terms of growing density in a short time period.  Look at the cities that have pulled off some sort of transit project..Charlotte, Phoenix, Houston, Dallas, Nashville, Little Rock, and more. These cities were obviously not incredibly dense to begin with, but especially in Phoenix..infill development along their LRT line took off and the area is now a walkable, transit-oriented community. Who would have ever thought that Phoenix could become urban so soon? It was truly reliant on the foresight of the community leaders who established the LRT there, and of course, all of us who paid for the federal subsidy to build the damn thing because of course, nothing gets done in Arizona without the feds paying for it.

My whole complaint about the feds notwithstanding, that's why this is something worthwhile for OKC and Tulsa to pursue and make happen regardless of how the federal government helps us or not. Typically if you pass a starter system like OKC has done and implement that well it makes you first in line for federal subsidies to do an expansion of the system or get into commuter rail/LRT type stuff, which is important for states not named Arizona. Could a private project come in and do the streetcar itself? Sure, it could..but the reality is that not even that is going to happen without substantial public investment into it even if they're not saying that now. But regardless, it is something that would be a huge boon to Tulsa and something that Tulsa should consider. Believe it or not, even though a downtown may not seem like a huge area, when you have an area that is more than 10 blocks wide by 10 blocks long (100+ blocks) that actually is a huge area when you think about it. In terms of stretching from Sand Springs to Coweta not really, but we're talking about the human scale here, not the freeway scale.

[TheArtist]

I think my main point is that we do something stylish, above average and unique.  The OKC thing they have pictured wouldnt do that for me as something for Tulsa for instance.  I love the BOK Arena and am SO glad we did something exceptional.  Its that kind of thing that adds to a cities appeal, adds another crown jewel to its architectural heritage.  

There are 3 ways you can do architecture or the style of something... Old/retro, Contemporary/new,  or a mix of both.

Now I would love everything to be very contemporary and new and for Tulsa "high style and of quality"   However, that often calls for more money and effort than usual.  So what you end up getting is same ol same ol whether its traditional brick or "Italianate" etc., or so so, ho hum, contemporary.  

Sure do wonderful, exceptional and contemporary if you can, BUT if your not going to mess with it and the developer or whoever is going to do something more "typical" and run of the mill, give it a deco twist instead of say Italian.  If your gonna do a simple brick building, throw in a few deco hints here and there instead of "this could be anywhere and says nothing special". The new ballpark was in a similar vein, its contemporary on the one hand, but they threw in some" deco echoes" to make it unique to Tulsa versus looking like the other contemporary one they did in Arkansas.  Its still contemporary and reflects the tastes, materials and look of today, but again it has a Tulsa twist to it.

You tend to either get something unique or "stock".  If you gonna get "stock" throw in something that will add to Tulsas heritage and help make our city unique and give it that sense of place.  You go to Texas and you see stars and boots etc. everywhere lol. They have plenty of unique contemporary and same ol same ol, but but they also have, some places more than others, a unique feel and look.  Places like Santa Fe and Tucson, really do that.  Colorado has log and stone stuff. The deep south white columns. Yes Miami does Deco, but its very different than ours, its light pastel colors and simple designs say "Miami".  Each place and part of the country has something that goes with its landscape and or history and they tend to play it up here and there from shopping malls to the corner gas station.   When it comes to choosing something thats going to be basic or stock, I think giving it a deco twist is a pretty danged good choice for Tulsa.

And thats the great thing about deco, you can do ANY style from contemporary to gothic, indeed even Italian and give it a deco twist and look.