Brookings Institute - State of Metropolitan America

[Cats Cats Cats]

As far as, people who want to move to other school districts than TPS are racists.  I think that everybody wants their children to get the best education they can.  When you throw up the TPS TOTAL AREA drop out rates, etc.  It doesn't compare to the other schools.  That isn't racist, thats the numbers.  Also, to bet that your child will get a lotto or selected to a magnet school isn't a sure thing at all.

[custosnox]

As far as, people who want to move to other school districts than TPS are racists.  I think that everybody wants their children to get the best education they can.  When you throw up the TPS TOTAL AREA drop out rates, etc.  It doesn't compare to the other schools.  That isn't racist, thats the numbers.  Also, to bet that your child will get a lotto or selected to a magnet school isn't a sure thing at all.

It seems to me that the "white flight" is more of a wayward grandchild of racism more then racism itself.  In other words, those who have the ability to move to what they perceive as a better inviroment for their children are, as you said, driven more by numbers then by racial preferances.  However, I think these numbers tend are in part a result of the past.  Low income begots low income.  In decades past seperation of the minorities, and a downward push by the majority, created masses of low income within the minority.  While there have been plenty to climb out from the bottom, and many who have fallen to the bottem from the top, it is by far the exeption to the rule.  So while the seperation of status still shows a line drawn in the racial sand, a line that becomes more blurred every day, it is more of a result of past racial differances then the current overtone that creates the "white flight" idealogy.

[Conan71]

"It's a critique of an upcoming book that compares marriage and abortion rates in Red and Blue states . . ."

So long as people think problems and solutions are or need to be partisan in nature, we will continue to sit and spin as the quality of education and the state of the family remains flat.  There's no government program which can give people great parenting skills.  There are programs which purport to do that, but if it's not instinctual or if the person is indifferent to their children, it's a waste of time.

The concept of family is pretty much unique to humans.  The concepts of marriage and family were largely spiritual in nature before they were ever social (i.e. laws of God before they became common or civil law).  We are the only species I'm aware of which commonly socializes with their offspring for the rest of our lives (most of us do anyhow).  Our societal "norms" have gone from more of a spiritual basis to a secular basis over the last century.  Women going into the workforce en masse during and after WWII hastened the process.

Anyhow, you can double the salaries of all existing TPS teachers and the outcomes will not change unless the parents and the community step up.  TPS schools will still have the image of being sub-par to the suburbs, I think it's a safe assessment of most every major metro area in the United States.  Suburbs have the newest facilities and usually higher property tax bases.  They also have newer housing which likely is going to indicate middle or upper class families.  Higher income families usually are more involved with their child's education both at home and volunteering at the schools.  It's a better working environment for teachers.  I had a history teacher at the private school I went to who said he was being paid a lower wage than he was paid at Nathan Hale, but the working conditions were so much better, it was worth the pay cut. 

I'm not being a snob about it nor preaching, people want to know what the solutions are and there they are as I see it.  Campaign after campaign of spending more on education has come and gone.  We've spent more on education and yet, according to the eggheads who are supposed to know, it's not changing anything as far as outcomes.  At least not in urban inner-city schools.  We can each draw our own conclusion, this is mine. 

To offer a solution as to how you can affect a change in troubled areas: if you have the time, volunteer in an inner-city school, guest teacher, after school programs, tutor, or find some way to mentor like BB&S.  You can't shake a parent and make them get involved but you can offer to be a positive role model in their child's life.  At some point when I'm not running back and forth between two cities, I hope I can start volunteering more again, I don't know of any job which is more gratifying in nature.

This isn't a red/blue rich/poor solution.  Too many people think spending money is the best solution when spending time with a child is really all that child is lacking in performing at or above their percieved ability.  I'm also a believer in the Pygmalian Effect.  If we expect that there will be poorer results out of inner city schools, there will be.  Granted there must be facilities to learn in, educated teachers to teach, and they need to have all the tools to make it happen. 

Another thing I've seen society do as we get busier is we tend to want to buy solutions instead of making time for them.

I remember something a friend of mine who came from a well-heeled and prominent Tulsa family said to me once.  He was a total screw up, chronic underachiever, and didn't have much appreciation for what he had.  He attributed it to his parents always giving him what he wanted (material items) and very little of what he really needed (time & love).

[Cats Cats Cats]

Actually, in education, teenage pregnancy.  Red and Blue does make a difference because of school policy.  For example, in general, Red states want to withhold information on contraception.

[OurTulsa]

I think you might still have to apply for the "magnet" program.  I am not sure what the rules are exactly.  Somebody tell us that knows what they are talking about.

Booker T and Carver and Thoreau are the only non-zone schools in TPS.  All others have a combination magnet and zone enrollment.  For instance, if you live in the Edison zone you will automatically go to Edison general middle/high school and if you qualify for their magnet program you 'will' get accepted to that program.

The rap by some on TPS is unfortunate.  Sure, there are poor schools in the system but there are excellent schools in the system as well from elementary up to high school.  I saw a State report card list a while back that showed BTW as the top performing high school in the state - by a mile - followed by Deer Creek in Edmond followed by Edison.  Jenks was somewhere in the bottom 10.  Owassa and B.A. further behind.  I didn't look but I suspect schools like McClain and Central were probably closer to the bottom of the list and it's unfortunate but that's probably what drives some public perception of teh district.   

[waterboy]

As far as, people who want to move to other school districts than TPS are racists.  I think that everybody wants their children to get the best education they can.  When you throw up the TPS TOTAL AREA drop out rates, etc.  It doesn't compare to the other schools.  That isn't racist, thats the numbers.  Also, to bet that your child will get a lotto or selected to a magnet school isn't a sure thing at all.

I might as well jump back in at this point.

Trog you are sounding like a defensive "homer". Jenks is a good school but not recognized for excellence outside of its football program and even then, few of its players ever do well in college or pros. Same thing with the rest of the suburban schools. Simply put they are legends in their own minds. The test scores do not show a significant difference from the performing schools in TPS that I mentioned. Throwing in drop out rates "etc?" is also not appropriate. The suburbs have disproportionately low numbers of low income demographics due to years of, yes, white flight as well as perpetuation of the low crime, high scholastics myths the realtors, builders and locals chant to newcomers. We are a much larger system. Might as well compare cornering of a bread truck to a sports car. They each have their function, neither one is appropriate for all tastes or needs.

When corrected for those elements, the burbs then have an abysmal school system. They ought to all be as highly rated as the ones I noted. In fact they ought to be nationally ranked, like a certain TPS high school.

Magnet programs. Many TPD schools have magnet programs. They worked so well for BTW and Carver that the last superintendent insisted they be spread to all local schools. In most cases, the local school district kids can still attend the school but may not be in the program. Central, Edison, the old McLain, Memorial, Rogers all have programs to attract kids.

A few of the schools are still application only. Thoreau, Mayo, Eisenhower come to mind. For good reason. They look at many aspects of the student NOT just his academics. That is important because they are looking for what everyone seems to agree is important....parent participation and conviction. Why? Because they have different methods of teaching. Mayo is a teaching school based on the same format as a teaching hospital, using the newest learning research in an open architecture setting. Thoreau has a unique business immersion program that the kids learn how to run a small city themselves. They apply for jobs in that city, have their own paper money and create their own laws. Eisenhower is French or Spanish immersion from the start. These things require parent conviction and participation on a greater scale. They are not elitist or hard to get into as you infer. Seen any of those programs in the burbs?

I don't begrudge people moving to the burbs or loving their suburban school systems. Its human nature. But analyses shows it is not a predictor of success. Its just another path. My experience has been with Lee, Carver, Thoreau, Booker T Washington, Central and Edison (Whoops-forgot to add Kendall and Wilson).

I beseech any newcomer or prospective parent to talk with local teachers and administrators (even the at risk schools because some of the performing schools were once in this category), visit the schools and observe. Do your own homework before listening to detractors of TPS who may have their own agenda. When you look at "the big picture" its a better experience for most than the conformity, lack of creativity and social homogeneity of the suburban schools. (last part JMO)

Ps- don't worry so much about a coach teaching math. The coach of the Thoreau middle school football team was also a candidate for teacher of the year and was a demanding, but gifted math teacher. He wanted his players to do well so they could play. My son's team won his division and his math scores in high school are consistently his best. Doesn't always work that way but if he wasn't effective at math, I feel certain the parents and the administration would have moved him elsewhere.

[TheArtist]

True spirituality dictates nothing to others and I'm not suggesting that it needs to be forced on anyone.  I'm simply saying it's where the real solutions are, not government dependence.  Spirituality is an individual walk and what works for me could possibly get you arrested in 11 states and 30 countries.  Your statement I emboldened though, that's kind of what I'm trying to convey.

I'm simply pointing out that solutions for the family aren't going to be found in government.  They are going to be in the basic tenets of any major observed religion.  I've never really seen the corollary between higher teacher salaries translating to better outcomes, especially in more poverty-stricken areas.  Teachers can only do so much in the process if apathy abounds at home.

Well ok lol. Here we are in the buckle of the Bible Belt with more churches than you can shake a stick at.  Many people moving here often comment at how many churches there are and how religious it is here.  Even statistics show we are very religious, having more devoutly religious people than average.  So this begs the question....


What the heck are these churches and religious people doing?  If more churchin is the solution... We shouldn't have any problems.  Yet we are worse off? But, if as you say we need more people going to church, how do you make that happen?


There are all kinds of innovative school programs in high poverty, high crime, "bad neighborhood" areas all over the country that have been shown to work. More money or less money is irrelevant.  You keep throwing out the straw man of "its all about more money" when we have said thats not the primary thing here. The changes needed MAY require it, but indeed, they may not.  You cant know how much money until you figure out the proper program.  When you figure out whats going to work THEN you fund it.

As for volunteering, fine, I thnk more people should. But again, how do you get that to happen?  And personally it would make more economic sense for me to work, make money, then pay someone for less to do the work for me lol.  Its like those people who go around collecting cans. If they had worked one extra hour and donated that, they could have bought more cans than they gathered in 2 hours of their time.  Its even less practical and costs more!  Sounds even less effective and more wasteful than most government solutions lol. Time isnt free. Voluneteering isnt free. Volunteering costs money too lol.

[Conan71]

Artist, you are missing some broad points. First off, religion, church, and spirituality are different things entirely and not necessarily interchangeable.  If you think I'm advocating people going to church to fix inner city school problems you are way off.  Point is, heads of families need to revert to spiritual values which put others before their needs and wants. And make the success of their offspring more important than their next sexual conquest.

You have choices with your spare time. You have no children. You are at liesure to determine if an Art Deco museum is more of a service to the community than connecting with some at risk youth and sharing your skills. It's not my call how you use your time. Simply don't dismiss my ideas wholesale because you aren't the right person to volunteer your time as a solution.  Bear with me. I'm solution not problem oriented. I offer solutions and if they are shot down, I expect to hear a better solution.   

[YoungTulsan]

I don't practice any religion, and I would absolutely agree with Conan that the government doesn't do much to promote strong family units (and in fact, has a track record of encouraging the opposite) - whereas volunteer organizations, and yes, churches, are the ones with the reputation for building and supporting families.

For charity, volunteerism, and faith based programs to work, government doesn't have to SUPPORT them, it merely needs to get out of the way.  There's your separation of Church and State.   Making empty promises (like "No Child Left Behind") gives people a false hope of being taken care of by a government with a track record of failure, which does effectively "get in the way" of previously successful institutions like those Conan is talking up.

[Cats Cats Cats]

Waterboy, in your analysis you are forgetting the fact that you are comparing a school like BTW to burb schools that BTW weeds out poor performers.  BTW is a top school in the state.  But Burb schools take everybody in the district.  So yes, when you get to weed out students based on academic acheivement through multiple districts.  Wow!!  Better test scores!  Amazin!  The fact that "test scores do not show a significant difference from the performing schools in TPS" when students are slected thee should be a big difference.  You yourself are talking about a smaller version of "white flight".  Just on a neighborhood basis in midtown.  TPS schools are great as long as you live in these couple of neighborhoods.  I guess it can be justified that you *could* live outside of these few districts if you are lucky enough to get into BTW.

[waterboy]

Waterboy, in your analysis you are forgetting the fact that you are comparing a school like BTW to burb schools that BTW weeds out poor performers.  BTW is a top school in the state.  But Burb schools take everybody in the district.  So yes, when you get to weed out students based on academic acheivement through multiple districts.  Wow!!  Better test scores!  Amazin!  The fact that "test scores do not show a significant difference from the performing schools in TPS" when students are slected thee should be a big difference.  You yourself are talking about a smaller version of "white flight".  Just on a neighborhood basis in midtown.  TPS schools are great as long as you live in these couple of neighborhoods.  I guess it can be justified that you *could* live outside of these few districts if you are lucky enough to get into BTW.

Luck has little to do with it. You are missing the fine point of parental involvement, income and education demographics. Ask any marketer locally and he will tell you that the demographics for Jenks and other affluent suburbs far exceed those of TPS districts. Their weeding out is being done in a different manner through a sort of natural selection and has been for decades. You have to have a lot of money to buy homes out there, which takes good jobs, which takes good education, which takes driven parents, etc., etc. Yes, they take any and all comers but they do divide them into fast track programs (gifted and talented so they have their own little elite kingdoms. And don't expect much diversity that would prepare you for the real world.

The rest of your argument is problematic for school systems. We want excellence and we understand the need for leadership so we set up avenues for pursuing those goals. Then we get accused of cherry picking. Not true, but easily repeated. The magnet programs are divided into areas of emphasis which takes into account that not all students perform well in all areas, but many students excel in particular areas. So, Memorial has a great engineering curriculum that attracts high performing science and math students. Central is oriented towards the arts. Each school seeks to find a way for a student to perform. But you choose to see that as limiting. I see the burbs as limiting. Two of my three boys decided to go to BTW. They decided, not the school. The school simply set standards to be met. My first decided early to pursue the Carver/BTW route because of social pressure. My second decided because of the challenge he knew it would pose. He is very competitive and worked hard to make it into the school. You think that attitude should not be rewarded? He did consider the other schools but his test scores show an equal balance among math, science, english and literature. He simply isn't attracted to one area yet.

You also ignore the size difference. Jenks is a much smaller school district and more homogeneous than TPD. Of course they take everyone regardless of performance. They have no choice, and neither does the performing student in that district. They must hope to be lucky enough to play the politics necessary to make it into G&T.

We love our myths. But the truth is TPS is doing a very good job and in fact is outperforming the burbs.

[Cats Cats Cats]

  Just because your parents make money doesn't mean you can make a high score on the ACT.  And yes, they have a much smaller pool, which means that TPS should be able to scoop up even more kids at the top that are high performers.

"So, Memorial has a great engineering curriculum that attracts high performing science and math students. Central is oriented towards the arts. Each school seeks to find a way for a student to perform. But you choose to see that as limiting."

 Oh.. Sorry, we don't have AP Calculus at this school, this is the art school.  You might want to transfer, but then you can't take this other class.

[godboko71]

 Just because your parents make money doesn't mean you can make a high score on the ACT.  And yes, they have a much smaller pool, which means that TPS should be able to scoop up even more kids at the top that are high performers.

"So, Memorial has a great engineering curriculum that attracts high performing science and math students. Central is oriented towards the arts. Each school seeks to find a way for a student to perform. But you choose to see that as limiting."

 Oh.. Sorry, we don't have AP Calculus at this school, this is the art school.  You might want to transfer, but then you can't take this other class.

Central has AP Calculus or it did as of last year, also has AP science and English classes. The Magnet Programs offer extras to those who want them, but the basic academics are provided at all the schools.

Its really a very smart program and if more parents where involved I think more students would take advantage. Someone mentioned the thread of calling parents does nothing, maybe that is because teachers and administrators don't follow through. Not that parents aren't to blame but far to many teachers don't harass parents (yes I said harass) enough if they don't respond.

One thing I think TPS should do is set up IEP's for all students instead of doing it for just students with learning disabilities. IEP's set up and regularly updated would help match students with the right class sets, teachers and fellow students. Better matching would lead to an over all better educated student.

I would also like to see more students being able to take advantage of concurrent enrollment in Tulsa Tech and TCC and or more classes that provide certificates/college credits. 

[waterboy]

Well said Godboko. It takes a balanced approach to meeting the needs of both the student and the community. Tulsa Tech and TCC provide even more outlets. If I remember right, the IED is a personalized curriculum plan?

Trog, I get the feeling you may not have traversed far within the school system or don't have kids in them at all. The greatest indicators of success in school, any public or private school, are parents' education, parents' income, and parents' involvement. You have a better chance of seeing your child succeed anywhere with all three of those. The chances decrease as each element is subtracted. That's just reality.

My third son sorely tried the patience of several different schools until finally settling out of court so to speak. He got a GED. He shared that experience with the children of doctors, lawyers and involved parents. I know this because we all struggled together to find some way to help them perform. The system had not yet embraced the magnet concept across the board during his tenure. He's fine though.

[custosnox]

Its really a very smart program and if more parents where involved I think more students would take advantage. Someone mentioned the thread of calling parents does nothing, maybe that is because teachers and administrators don't follow through. Not that parents aren't to blame but far to many teachers don't harass parents (yes I said harass) enough if they don't respond.

How much time should a teacher spend trying to get a parent to do something about their kids?  10 minutes a day?  20?  When you have a class of 30, and at least 1/3 have parents that aren't involved, that's over an hour of "harrassing" that has to be done, while at the same time the students need to be taught.  If it was just one or two I could see this, but it's so much more.  In addition to that it takes more then just calling, because this is what they do.  And they do call.  I've had them call me three times while I was in the shower.  In a lot of these cases the teacher would have to knock on the door to get any kind of response, and I have seen this as well.  There is only so much that the schools can do on this front.  Yes, there are teachers that don't care enough to bother with this, but they are far fewer then the parents that give a rats patoot.