Let's Bailout the Teachers!!!

[rwarn17588]

Do you happen to have a figure for how much is being directed at special needs students in Oklahoma?  Just curious.

EDIT: At least when I went to a private Catholic school here in the Tulsa area over 25 years ago, the pay scale there was reputed by one of my teachers who had just come from Hale to be behind TPS's pay schedule by a year, but the working conditions were worth the pay cut, according to him.

I have no idea if that is still the case about lower pay, but I suspect not all private schools can afford to provide quality education and programs for $6600 per year and pay top salaries.  They may well provide better working conditions.

According to one recent news story, Oklahoma spends $11,000 a year per special-needs student.

http://newsok.com/oklahoma-bill-would-create-special-needs-scholarships/article/3459158?custom_click=rss

[waterboy]

You are correct.  I do tend to lean towards simple solutions.  You are also correct in that there are times when common sense solutions do not work.  This is not one of those times.

When you boil down the problems with education, you must consider the following:

1.   The education of the kids is the priority, not the unions or job security for the educators.
2.   The US spends on average around $9,000 per child a year on education.
3.   You can finance a damn good education for that amount.

So where is the complexity that I am missing?

I appreciate your passion and your point of view.

Its exhausting how you folks are experts in just about everything and yet inevitably it all comes back down to simple truths: government sloth, unions, taxes and the superiority of life in the suburbs. Most of you have technical degrees from what I can tell. Perhaps that is the true path to enlightenment.

How many teachers or education professionals have chimed into this thread? Any sociologists? How about a parent with a mainstreamed handicap child? None that would admit it I'm sure. I would encourage you to research why tenure is offered to teaching professionals. I assure you it was not a product of the evil unions.

And what's with the figures thrown out as if they are significant? In what way? $9000?? $6600 for a private school?? Are they national figures that average in NYC and Cali with Utah? They have no relation to anything.

I am let down in the quality of conversations here and how they always end up in the same rants. As far as I'm concerned put Education in the basket with Abortion, State Rights, Drugs, Welfare, Birth Certificates and Offshore Drilling. We're all screwed.

Anyway, nice chatting.

[Cats Cats Cats]

That's kind of our deal too.  We were living in midtown and planning a family.  Our choice was private schools or send our kids to Jenks.  We wanted the diversity and social experience of a public school, but the quality and parental involvement you find at a private.  After touring several schools, both public and private, we chose Jenks, and moved into the district.  We rented out our old midtown home for a couple of years, and then cut bait.

Oh geeze.. here we go..

[SXSW]

That's kind of our deal too.  We were living in midtown and planning a family.  Our choice was private schools or send our kids to Jenks.  We wanted the diversity and social experience of a public school, but the quality and parental involvement you find at a private.  After touring several schools, both public and private, we chose Jenks, and moved into the district.  We rented out our old midtown home for a couple of years, and then cut bait.

There are midtown schools that are just as good, if not better, than the same ones in Jenks.  Eliot and Lee are excellent schools, and Barnard and Patrick Henry are not bad either.  Eliot especially has lots of parent involvement and many of the kids there go on to Carver and Edison both of which are also good schools and then on to either Edison High or Booker T.  We moved to where we did in midtown because of the schools and the fact that our kids could get a good education in a diverse environment and also be within walking distance of their elementary school.  I hear of people leaving midtown for bigger houses because of the high cost/sf but not for better schools.

[Gaspar]

There are midtown schools that are just as good, if not better, than the same ones in Jenks.  Eliot and Lee are excellent schools, and Barnard and Patrick Henry are not bad either.  Eliot especially has lots of parent involvement and many of the kids there go on to Carver and Edison both of which are also good schools and then on to either Edison High or Booker T.  We moved to where we did in midtown because of the schools and the fact that our kids could get a good education in a diverse environment and also be within walking distance of their elementary school.  I hear of people leaving midtown for bigger houses because of the high cost/sf but not for better schools.

You're right, it really was a total package thing.  We looked at many of the schools you mentioned.  Edison scored pretty high on our list, but we also looked at the environment as a whole. Jenks felt warm.  There were no cold echoing tile and laminate hallways.  There was a huge emphasis on natural light. The condition of the books and materials was better, and the teachers seemed genuinely happy.

I'm sure that there are several fantastic options in midtown, but none of them fit what we were looking for.

[RecycleMichael]

These are 2009 comparable Academic Performance Index test scores for some Elementary schools in the region.

Tulsa Public Elementary
low scores....Houston 650, Greeley 806, Jones 813, Anderson 820
high scores...Eisenhower 1500, Carnegie 1500, Penn 1495, Eliot 1484

Jenks Elementary
low scores....Jenks East 1389, Jenks West 1401,
high scores...Jenks Southeast 1500

Union Public
low scores....Rosa Parks 1061, McCauliffe 1180, Grove 1225
high scores...Cedar Ridge 1475, Marshall Moore 1475, Anderson 1442

[nathanm]

I am in favor of vouchers to private schools and charter schools. I'm actually in favor of doing away with mandated school districts and allowing complete open choice. Much like healthcare we spend too much money on education in this country with too little returns. A school will get a set amount of money based on the number of students enrolled with bonuses for good performance. The goal should be to pay good teachers more which in turn should help to recruit good new teachers and get rid of bad teachers. Competition is good and should bring costs down and performance up over time. The goal being that bad schools will die and schools that do well, will thrive and grow.

How do you propose the working poor get their children to and from these more distant schools? For many people, the only option is for their kid to go where the bus will take them. I guess we should just let them rot as the families who do have the means to transport their children to and from school themselves pull their kids out and send the funding to more distant schools.

Vouchers seem like a good idea in theory, but I have yet to see anyone address the significant practical issues.

[rwarn17588]

Unlike waterboy, I think this discussion about education has been interesting and informative. But I'm also detecting a bit of ignorance or, at the least, naiveté.

There is one big factor that the advocates of private schools are missing. Private schools have the right to refuse to enroll a child if said child is problematic or disruptive enough. In essence, public schools can skim off the cream from the top and leave the rest.

Public schools, except for the most egregious cases, have no such option against ne'er-do-wells until the kid is 16 and drops out, or ends up in a juvenile detention center.

So, by default, public schools are at an inherent and significant disadvantage against private schools. That kid with Asperger's syndrome? It's very likely he'll be at a public school. That kid from a neglectful or abusive household? It's very likely he'll be at a public school. That kid with severe learning disabilities? That kid will very likely be at a public school.

And not only will those children have a lot of troubles learning, but those same kids tend to be disruptive in class and distract the kids who are able and want to learn.

And even with vouchers, there's no guarantee that the money even will be enough to pay for a private school, especially if the parent of the potential enrollee is poor.

Like some of you, I used to think that vouchers and the other seemingly simple solutions would fix our schools. But I'm married to a TPS teacher, and a very good one (her class finished only behind Edison and BTW in the test scores of her subject). So I get to hear those war stories about troubled students from her firsthand. I now am aware that the problems with the American education system are complicated, and there is no simple solutions. Like everything else, I realize the real world is exceedingly complex, and that no one answer fits all.

So if anyone who trots out the old, tired, boilerplate "solutions," I'm going to consider them yet another person from the "all theory, no practice" crowd.

[RecycleMichael]

There is one big factor that the advocates of private schools are missing. Private schools have the right to refuse to enroll a child if said child is problematic or disruptive enough. In essence, public schools can skim off the cream from the top and leave the rest.

That is what I was saying back on page 2 of this thread.

But public schools are generally better at preparing students for real world issues because they are made up of real world people. Yes, the bookwork is important, but private schools can produce bright students who have no idea how to succeed after school.

My son has classmates from all parts of Tulsa and all income classes and races. I feel good that he has made many friends that come from a different perspective than he does. 

[SXSW]

These are 2009 comparable Academic Performance Index test scores for some Elementary schools in the region.

Tulsa Public Elementary
low scores....Houston 650, Greeley 806, Jones 813, Anderson 820
high scores...Eisenhower 1500, Carnegie 1500, Penn 1495, Eliot 1484

Jenks Elementary
low scores....Jenks East 1389, Jenks West 1401,
high scores...Jenks Southeast 1500

Union Public
low scores....Rosa Parks 1061, McCauliffe 1180, Grove 1225
high scores...Cedar Ridge 1475, Marshall Moore 1475, Anderson 1442

Interesting to see Penn with a higher score than any of the Union schools located at N. 46th & Lewis.  Also interesting that two of the lowest performing schools are in basically the same neighborhood to the north and west.  I think the top schools in TPS can easily compete with or outperform the top schools in every surrounding district.  The problem with TPS is that there are so many schools that there are plenty of underperforming schools in addition to the good ones that other districts don't have..

[Conan71]

I figured this might be the right topic to post this under.  This is an email from a friend of mine who is the "In school suspension teacher"  read on:

"So my principal wants teachers to have a short presentation about classroom expectations, management, homework and behavior to present to parents at "Back to School Night.

Let me know how this works for you.

    "Welcome to In School Suspension. 

    This is the room your child comes to when the socialization skills you were supposed to have taught them between birth and 11 to 14 and in some of cases 16 years of age have failed to be utilized by your child.

    What I will try to in the one to five, and in some cases 25 days, your child is with me is teach them what you failed to do: interact with people without cussing, insulting or fighting. 
   
    My job is not to get your child suspended, but to make sure your child learns the best way to stay in class and insure that there is a proper learning atmosphere for all students in the classroom.

    Many students will do fine and may never need to return to this room for the remainder of their middle and high school years.

    Due to my upbringing though I am a realist, and I understand that I will not succeed in all cases.  For those of you that this applies to, this would be the time for some of you to contact the JBDC, David L. Moss Correctional Facility, Lloyd Raider Juvenile Detention Center, Stringtown, McAlister or any of the other fine Oklahoma State Penitentiary locations to make housing  accommodations for your child.

[dbacks fan]

Do you think the parents would get it, or would they say it's the schools fault for their child to wind up in In School Suspension?

[nathanm]

Conan, your teacher friend needs to learn the difference between insure and ensure. 

[Conan71]

Conan, your teacher friend needs to learn the difference between insure and ensure. 

He's a public school teacher, what do you expect?