Israel v. The Middle East

[Hoss]

Strange thread. . . 

Liberals usually love Israel during election time.

Really?  I thought it was the righties who had the love affair for the Israeli.  Heaven forbid that we let Muslim countries be mad at them.

But yeah, in this case, Israel is in the wrong.  Netanyahoo (purposeful misspelling) seems very divisive, especially when it comes to the two-state plan and essentially calling peace talks a waste of time.

[Red Arrow]

Give me a bloody break about those rockets that are launched.  What does Israel retaliate with?  Certainly not some rocket that does not kill thousands!!!!

What do you expect the Israelis to retaliate with?  Water balloons?  I guess you think it is perfectly acceptable for the Palestinians to launch rockets at civilian areas and that Israel should just sit back and ask for some suicide bomber chasers. (Chaser as in a chaser for a strong drink.)

[guido911]

/quote]

This is what's deplorable:

[heironymouspasparagus]

Altruismsuffers,
Level headed??  Oh, no...I stand accused and must now take great umbrage!  Or not.  Thanks, I guess.  I suppose I will have to watch myself if am getting those kind of comments.


Palestinians celebrating -
That pretty much goes to the whole point.  How far back do we keep score??  Do we count the 65,000 to 2 million Palestinians killed since 1920??  Or only the 2500 Israeli's killed in the same time frame??  Who wins the body count game??  Who wins the "hearts and minds" on that deal??

At exactly the same time they were celebrating 9/11, we had our own clowns out killing Muslims and Sikhs.  Who is the worst on that deal??

Hoss, it is the right wing religious extremists who have this thing about Israel and how we must support them 'cause the end of days are pending soon, and they are looking for/expecting the apocalypse to happen starting there.  I don't have a problem supporting Israel for the most part, but we can certainly apply some pressure there to cut out the crap.  At this point, we are deep into it with them - back scratching arrangement - in that region.  Definitely our proxie.

Political ad;
Read Walden!!  (David Henry Thoreau)

Oh, cool!!  Terminator II is on!!!
Must - go - watch - mayhem!!!

[nathanm]

This is what's deplorable:

And what exactly does that have to do with what Israel is doing to them?

If I were in their position, I'd probably be pretty happy if something bad happened to Israel's staunchest supporter. I'm glad I'm not in their position.

[Red Arrow]

It's not exactly the same but Oklahoma is similar to Israel in that the US Government moved the Cherokee, Chickasaw, Choctaw,Creek, and Seminole Tribes to Oklahoma where the Osage lived before the big relocation.  I'll call time zero as 1800, just before the Louisiana Purchase since this is my post and I can call time zero any time I want.  Also because I don't feel like spending the time to find out who was here before the Osage.

Judging from their posts on this thread, I expect Heironymous.., HoneySuckle, maybe Nathan and a few others would support the Osage Nation if they resumed their early displeasure by sending suicide bombers and rockets to homes of not only the 5 tribes but also all the blacks, whites, and other invaders of their territory.  It's been less than 200 years, a blink of the eye compared to tensions in the middle east.

[guido911]

And what exactly does that have to do with what Israel is doing to them?

Not much, only that it's good to know who you are aligning yourself up with.

[nathanm]

Judging from their posts on this thread, I expect Heironymous.., HoneySuckle, maybe Nathan and a few others would support the Osage Nation if they resumed their early displeasure by sending suicide bombers and rockets to homes of not only the 5 tribes but also all the blacks, whites, and other invaders of their territory.

There's a big difference between understanding and support. There's also a big difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians and how the Osage are treated today. Granted, we were probably equally crappy to the natives in general when we forced them off the east coast and then kept forcing them westward as we decided to settle farther and farther west.

Some tribes we kicked off their land three or four times. Heck, we still refuse to honor the terms of a lot of the treaties we signed with them.

Guido, I'm not "aligning" myself with them. My world is not one where I have to agree with someone to think they're being mistreated.

[Red Arrow]

So far, the most vehement complaints about the blockade runners treatment was that they were still in international waters.

Would it have been OK to blast them to the next ocean if they had been in Israel's territorial waters?  It would have been interesting if the offending ship blew up as though it had been carrying explosives, missiles, etc.

[guido911]

[quote author=nathanm link=topic=15648.msg166635#msg166635 date=1275623919
Guido, I'm not "aligning" myself with them. My world is not one where I have to agree with someone to think they're being mistreated.
[/quote]

Oh bullcrap.  3,000 American's dead; let's party!!!

[Red Arrow]

There's a big difference between understanding and support. There's also a big difference between what Israel is doing to the Palestinians and how the Osage are treated today. Granted, we were probably equally crappy to the natives in general when we forced them off the east coast and then kept forcing them westward as we decided to settle farther and farther west.

Some tribes we kicked off their land three or four times. Heck, we still refuse to honor the terms of a lot of the treaties we signed with them.

Guido, I'm not "aligning" myself with them. My world is not one where I have to agree with someone to think they're being mistreated.

I can understand a man stealing a loaf of bread for his family without supporting him.  If he kills the shop owner getting the loaf of bread, understanding or not, he gets "bad press".  I don't care if the shop owner called him nasty names before getting shot.

Imagine how we would treat the Osage today if they had continued to conduct raids on the "invaders" for the last 150 or so years.  

[nathanm]

Oh bullcrap.  3,000 American's dead; let's party!!!

What, you wouldn't be happy if 3,000 Iranians were killed in a terrorist attack? You should keep in mind that to these people, all we are is a bunch of hypocrites who enable Israel to continue oppressing them.

That doesn't mean I think it's right, only that I see where they're coming from, even as I continue to think that that sort of attitude needs to be wiped off the face of the Earth. If you refuse to understand what leads other people to believe what they believe, your only option to oppose them becomes war. We've seen how well that's worked out in Afghanistan and Iraq.

You could ask the Russians how it's working for them in Chechnya, if you need further corroboration of my point.

I'm just saying that seeking to understand someone does not mean you agree with their behavior.

All that said, the cause of the problems really comes from Saudi Arabia and Iran, who support the terrorist organizations that claim to be working in the Palestinians' interest but are really working to undermine Israel on behalf of the Saudis and the Iranians. None of that excuses Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, though. It's one thing to ensure weapons aren't being smuggled in. It's another thing entirely to deny them cattle and goats, build on territory that's supposedly not theirs, and so on.

I think we can all agree we'd be better off if Yitzhak Rabin hadn't been assassinated back in 1995. Somehow that set off another round of shittiness towards the Palestinians that hasn't stopped since despite the assassin being a Jew.

[we vs us]

I can understand a man stealing a loaf of bread for his family without supporting him.  If he kills the shop owner getting the loaf of bread, understanding or not, he gets "bad press".  I don't care if the shop owner called him nasty names before getting shot.

Imagine how we would treat the Osage today if they had continued to conduct raids on the "invaders" for the last 150 or so years.  

Where the analogy fizzles out completely is with the blockade.  We never walled the Osage off in their cities and kept supplies from getting in.  IMO that changes the complexion of things completely, and when the struggle becomes not for your state but for food, water, medical equipment -- basic survival -- then it's a very different game.

If the political problem is keeping score, the tit for tat never ends.  This tends to be one of the problems in the middle east:  grudges are tended, refreshed, and kept alive far longer than they should be.  This obviously happens in other places, too, but the middle east cultures really relish their grudges.  So, yeah, there's never an end to who did what to whom.  It thus becomes a test of courage to see who can muster the political will to break out of the cycle.  Neither the Israelis nor the Palestinians have, though recently it's almost as if the Israelis have been working to keep that political will from coalescing. 

[guido911]

[guido911]

What, you wouldn't be happy if 3,000 Iranians were killed in a terrorist attack?

Man you make things so easy sometimes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3808904

28,00 dead Iranians in an earthquake two years after 9/11.  I do not recall the celebrations in the streets by us. Do you?