BOK Center v. Sprint Center

[DTowner]

Two reasons why I think the BOK Center is a success:

1)  in the 10 years I lived in Tulsa before the BOK, I attended 1 concert at the Convention Center (Elton John by himself - the rest of the country was getting Elton John and Billy Joel).  Since the BOK, I've attended over a dozen concerts.  That's money I used to spend traveling out of the city and ofen out of the state to see concerts.

2)  whether it's called "profit" or somethiing else, the BOK's reveunes are exceeding its operating expenses by a substantial margin and it is banking cash for future upkeep.  How is that not a good thing?

The fact that the BOK exceeded all expectations during a recession is nothing short of amazing and demonstrats how ready/desparate Tulsa was for a modern arena and top tier entertainment.

[BKDotCom]

Parks and bicycle trails are a huge waste of money as well..   We can all agree they take money to build and maintain. But try to show me one that's generated any income.    Out of towners may even mooch and use our parks without paying to use them.  *gasp*

And why are we spending all this money on streets.    A huge waste of money unless we convert them to toll roads.

[we vs us]

Conference USA Men's bball tournament; NCAA 1st and 2nd rounds; the Shock; PBR Nationals.  All of these things would've most likely or definitely bypassed Tulsa if not for the BOK Center. 

[Conan71]

Conference USA Men's bball tournament; NCAA 1st and 2nd rounds; the Shock; PBR Nationals.  All of these things would've most likely or definitely bypassed Tulsa if not for the BOK Center. 

Interesting side note as far as rodeos, the International Finals Rodeo used to be here at the Convention Center.  At the time, I believe it was considered one of the better outside sales tax generators for Tulsa, then IIRC, we lost it to Vegas. 

A big deal was made about the Arabian horse show when we were making the pitch for it, now it's come and gone a couple of times without a whole lot of fanfare.  What's up with that?

[we vs us]

Interesting side note as far as rodeos, the International Finals Rodeo used to be here at the Convention Center.  At the time, I believe it was considered one of the better outside sales tax generators for Tulsa, then IIRC, we lost it to Vegas. 

A big deal was made about the Arabian horse show when we were making the pitch for it, now it's come and gone a couple of times without a whole lot of fanfare.  What's up with that?

They rebooked for 2011 and 2012, and they're a good chunk of business for area hotels.  Not sure of their impact on other parts of the economy. 

[MichaelBates]

Profit - n - the monetary surplus left to a producer or employer after deducting wages, rent, cost of raw materials, etc.

Income - Operating Expenses = Profit (or loss)

The costs associated with building the BOK Center is encumbered by the county and not by the BOK Center itself. Two separate legal entities.

So.. by definition... it is making a profit.

You have to include the cost of the facility in your calculations or you haven't accounted for all the expenses. SMG may be turning a profit, but the people of Tulsa County won't turn a profit on the arena until the cumulative incremental sales tax generated by the arena is greater than what we paid for it in sales taxes (cost of construction plus bond fees and interest, since we borrowed against future receipts to build it).

The BOK Center will be obsolete, replaced, and its replacement obsolete and in need of replacement before it could generate enough incremental sales tax revenue to pay the taxpayers back what we put into it. That's even if you assume the first year's numbers continue indefinitely -- an assumption John Bolton said we shouldn't make.

[BKDotCom]

You have to include the cost of the facility in your calculations or you haven't accounted for all the expenses. SMG may be turning a profit, but the people of Tulsa County won't turn a profit on the arena until the cumulative incremental sales tax generated by the arena is greater than what we paid for it in sales taxes (cost of construction plus bond fees and interest, since we borrowed against future receipts to build it).

The people of Tulsa wanted an arena... we bought one.
We want parks.. we build parks.
I'm not expecting a profit from my giant TV... I do expect it to provide entertainment.
Profit schmofit.   As long as we don't have to bail it out.

[Hoss]

The people of Tulsa wanted an arena... we bought one.
We want parks.. we build parks.
I'm not expecting a profit from my giant TV... I do expect it to provide entertainment.
Profit schmofit.   As long as we don't have to bail it out.

He's just mad he was proven wrong....

...again.

[MichaelBates]

The people of Tulsa wanted an arena... we bought one.

The people of Tulsa were not given a straight up or down vote on an arena in 2003, despite calls at the time to have it stand on its own. It was packaged with money for area colleges and school districts, all lumped together as "economic development."

Over the years, the Chamber has tried to sell voters on the idea that spending money on convention centers and arenas will mean more dollars available for government services. (I seem to recall a billboard campaign to that effect.) But that argument only works if the incremental increase in tax revenue generated by a facility exceeds the tax money devoted to building it and running it. Otherwise, the smarter investment would have been to put the money directly into streets, public safety, and education.

[Hoss]

The people of Tulsa were not given a straight up or down vote on an arena in 2003, despite calls at the time to have it stand on its own. It was packaged with money for area colleges and school districts, all lumped together as "economic development."

Over the years, the Chamber has tried to sell voters on the idea that spending money on convention centers and arenas will mean more dollars available for government services. (I seem to recall a billboard campaign to that effect.) But that argument only works if the incremental increase in tax revenue generated by a facility exceeds the tax money devoted to building it and running it. Otherwise, the smarter investment would have been to put the money directly into streets, public safety, and education.

Still stings after seven years, huh?

[MichaelBates]

You must set a low bar for the term "thriving."

Plenty of other people were calling the Blue Dome District thriving long before the BOK Center opened its doors and well before the vote to fund an arena.

Tulsa World, November 11, 2001, a year after an arena tax was defeated at the polls, 22 months before the Vision 2025 vote, just shy of seven years before the arena opened:

The Blue Dome District

If you've never heard of this  part of town, don't worry: the name was only recently coined. The Blue Dome District is an area downtown that
extends east from the new Williams Companies building to the historic blue-domed filling station at Second Street and Elgin Avenue. Currently, it includes the Studio 310 and Goodfella's nightclubs as well as the relocated SoBo II art gallery and good ol' Arnie's bar.

That's what's already there. What's about to come -- by New Year's Eve, if all goes well -- is another trio of nightspots at the corner of Second Street and Detroit Avenue: the Voodoo Room, Velvet, and an undetermined club or restaurant....

Elsewhere in the neighborhood, the old Route 66 Diner, which burned down in '99, will be reborn by year's end as the 1974 Pub and Grill, a down-home sports bar for the serious fan. Randy King and his daughter Tina are working on the restaurant-club, which will feature occasional live blues bands and a unique hamburger-coney menu borrowed from one of three such shops -- each of them minor legends in food circles -- in El Reno.

Mayfest chairman Michael Patton, May 2002, six years before the BOK Center's inaugural event:

"But that situation has changed dramatically in recent years," Patton said. "And we're hoping that this year's Mayfest can really draw attention to how far downtown has bounced back."

Toward that end, Patton has redrawn the Mayfest map.

In recent years, the festival had started to spread out to the west of the Main Mall, creating more elbow room for the expanding crowds.

But this year's event will refocus attention on the Main Mall itself and shift some attractions toward the northeast, trying to direct part of the festival crowd toward the so-called "Blue Dome" district, which is slowly being redeveloped with restaurants and night spots.

"Tulsa is breathing life back into its downtown," Patton said. "If people are paying attention, they will see that this is an exciting place to be right now."

Not an exciting place to be if only we had an arena, but "an exciting place to be right now."

From an August 2002 article by Michael Overall about the StreetLife proposal:

Other StreetLife members include a virtual Who's Who of downtown real estate developers, including Michael Sager, who has already transformed the blighted Blue Dome district into a thriving commercial hot spot.

From March 2003, four months before the Vision 2025 package was put on the ballot, five and a half years before the BOK Center opened its doors:

Elliott Nelson can easily see beyond the aging facade, and like other ambitious entrepreneurs interested in downtown's metamorphosis, the Tulsa native believes his future lies in part of his hometown's past.

By June 1, his Americanized version of an Irish pub, James E. McNellie's Public House, should be open for business.

Nelson's story is part of a trend that's illuminating dark, previously empty streets with the glare of neon. From the Blue Dome district centered around Detroit Avenue and First and Second streets north to the brick warehouses that make up much of Brady Village, a unique mix of concert halls, nightclubs, bars and restaurants -- many within walking distance of one another -- are bringing Tulsa's downtown back to life.

Small businesses such the pub planned by Nelson can play a big part in rejuvenating downtown, said Jay Clemens, the chamber's president.

And the more of them clustered downtown, the better.

"People have been looking for a concentration of venues downtown for a long time. All of this is wonderful," he said of the recent burst of economic activity around the central business district. "It has an enormous impact on getting people back downtown. . . . It has huge implications of getting people to live downtown.

"It has really started a whole economic chain of activity."...

Richard Becker arrived in Tulsa three years ago from Santa Monica, Calif., to work as a senior video editor for TV Guide. But now he is renovating vacant space next to the Westby Playhouse & Cinema at the corner of Second Street and Detroit Avenue into a smoke-free, 3,500-square-foot bar and restaurant featuring sushi and what he has branded as "Pan Asian" food -- a selective mix of Chinese and Japanese cuisine combined with a sampling of some of his favorite southern West Coast dishes.

Becker is hoping for a May 1 opening for Tsunami....

These new clubs, bars and restaurants "are an experience within walking distance" of each other, [DTU President] Jim Norton said, and their eclectic blend of environments showcase a sampling of what Tulsa has to offer.

"When you have eight to 10 eating spots, then you begin to get a critical mass, and that's how entertainment districts get started," he said.

Clemens agrees that a thriving entertainment scene is that important first step toward a down town where people want to live and shop.

"It's happening, and it's very promising," he said....

Nightclub owner Steve Kitchell, who already owns Studio 310 and the Majestic, is the man behind downtown's latest nightspots.

His trio of clubs along First Street are interconnected within a single, 14,000-square-foot building, although each one has a different ambiance. And so far, the Voodoo Room, 1st Street Alley and the Velvet Room are reaping the rewards of downtown's renaissance.

"We opened June 1, and we've had an overwhelming response," Kitchell said. "Right now, it is the scene downtown."

Business has even surpassed his past business ventures in south Tulsa and Brookside. "In sales, we've crushed those revenues," he said. "It's the trend now -- people want to come downtown."

Kitchell says he is selling 600 cases of Budweiser a week, and probably 500 martinis -- at $6 to $10 a drink -- on an average weekend night.

A few weeks after the Vision 2025 vote, and about five years before the arena hosted its first event, Ed Sharrer wrote an op-ed calling for the arena to be located east of 2nd and Elgin, for synergy with an existing entertainment district:

There are restaurants, dance clubs, pubs, an art gallery, and an art movie house within a few blocks of Second Street and Elgin Avenue. Dinner before the game? Dancing after a concert? All within walking distance -- the day the arena opens. Building the arena on the east side of downtown would turn an emerging scene into an instant entertainment destination. These businesses already exist, so there's no need for a "build it and they will come" approach. Let's build the arena where people are already going!

"Already going," not "may be going five years from now."

By August 2004, four years before the BOK Center opened, police were increasing their presence in the area to deal with growing crowds:

Dalgleish said TPD stepped up patrols of downtown clubs three months ago not because of concerns over violent crime, but to address growing crowds. Club Eclipse routinely gets more than 1,000 patrons each night, and other bars in the area each serve hundreds.

More people in one area means a greater need for police protection and traffic control, Dalgleish said.

"Calls would stack up and prevent officers from getting everywhere they needed to be," he said.

The department now allows five officers to work overtime at the clubs on Thursday, Friday and Saturday nights, with three to six additional on-duty officers helping at closing time from 1:30 to 2:15 a.m.

Dalgleish said the department doesn't receive additional money for the additional officers, but they recoup some of the money through traffic citations.

Typically, the officers work disorderly conduct calls, fights and traffic violations. They also close streets and regulate traffic around Club Eclipse when it closes at 2 a.m. because it's near an on-ramp to Interstate 244.

"Eclipse is on Second Street, which is a major route to the expressways," Dalgleish said.

Before police blocked the roads, Dalgleish said lingering patrons would back up traffic for many blocks.

Though bars and clubs are throughout downtown, Dalgleish said the vast majority of police calls originate in and around the Blue Dome District -- roughly from First to Third streets between Cincinnati and Elgin avenues....

Collins didn't think perceived problems were cutting into his business because sales at McNellie's have exceeded expectations so far.

In the summer of 2006, two years before the BOK Center opened, two young Los Angeles Times travel writers visited the Blue Dome District as part of a cross-country journey:

We didn't know a thing about Tulsa, except that it existed. What we found was a town clearly on the rise; industrial-chic brick buildings encased galleries, shops and restaurants worthy of any major arts-concerned metropolis. But the vibe here, hipness and good taste notwithstanding, is unmistakably small-town. Tulsans could easily qualify as our nation's friendliest people.

The original blog entry is no longer on the web, but in a wrap-up story on the trip Avital Binshtock wrote:

Perhaps the crowning experience was discovering the unexpected charms of Tulsa, Okla.

And she included Tulsa in a February 2007 list of "10 unsung cities full of surprises":

Tulsa's on the rise. Its industrial-chic Blue Dome District ends any idea of provincialism, as do its Performing Arts Center (by the architect of New York's World Trade Center) and its spectacular Philbrook and Gilcrease museums. Best of all, Tulsans make you feel at home

[MichaelBates]

Still stings after seven years, huh?

I just don't like seeing my city suckered into bad investments. False claims about the impact of the BOK Center, if left unanswered, will only make it easier to sell the public on future bad investments. The cost of building the arena is about a third of the total cost of Vision 2025. If that 0.2% tax were going directly into the city's general fund, it would mean an extra $13 million a year to fund public safety, parks, and streets at the same overall sales tax rate. $13 million is the difference between a bit of slightly uncomfortable belt-tightening and the full-blown fiscal crisis the city is currently experiencing. Is the arena generating enough additional economic activity ($433 million a year in additional retail sales) to bring in an extra $13 million a year in city sales tax revenues?

If you're an aging baby boomer who's happy because the arena gives you the chance to see your favorite nostalgia acts, I won't argue with you. If you claim Tulsans in general are getting their $200 million or so worth out of the facility, I probably will argue with you. 

[Hoss]

I just don't like seeing my city suckered into bad investments. False claims about the impact of the BOK Center, if left unanswered, will only make it easier to sell the public on future bad investments. The cost of building the arena is about a third of the total cost of Vision 2025. If that 0.2% tax were going directly into the city's general fund, it would mean an extra $13 million a year to fund public safety, parks, and streets at the same overall sales tax rate. $13 million is the difference between a bit of slightly uncomfortable belt-tightening and the full-blown fiscal crisis the city is currently experiencing. Is the arena generating enough additional economic activity ($433 million a year in additional retail sales) to bring in an extra $13 million a year in city sales tax revenues?

If you're an aging baby boomer who's happy because the arena gives you the chance to see your favorite nostalgia acts, I won't argue with you. If you claim Tulsans in general are getting their $200 million or so worth out of the facility, I probably will argue with you.  

How is it a bad investment as a focal point for bringing business downtown?  Have you asked people like Eliot Nelson if they'd raver NOT have the arena or the ballpark?  How about the other businesses?  Do you think the BBQ contest would have come here without it?  How about the ballpark?

You seem to think that Tulsa is alone in how we fund public convention buildings.  We aren't.  No one every says that these arenas make money.  Ours, after two years, is profitable and that just eats at your craw that you proven wrong.

I'm a middle aged Gen-X er who will argue that we did get our money's worth out of it.  Why?  Because cities like Little Rock, OKC, St Louis, KC don't get exclusive hold on the things that make quality of entertainment (which you cannot put a price tag on) attainable.

A metro area of 1 million couldn't compete with places like Little Rock, Wichita, Omaha and the like with the 40 year old Convention Center.

Obviously not a progressive bone in your body, but hey, that's your opinion.  I don't see many others like it now that the arena is doing what it is doing.

[RecycleMichael]

I just don't like seeing my city suckered into bad investments. False claims about the impact of the BOK Center, if left unanswered, will only make it easier to sell the public on future bad investments.

I don't disagree that the arena was a bad investment in the strict sense of public dollars invested versus recovered. But I will argue that the arena was needed for a public spirit investment. The arena made Tulsans proud and has become a public gathering spot where we share time together.

I met out-of-towners at the Eagles concert and a slew of Memphis fans at the conference basketball tournament who both talked about what a beautiful city we have. The arena brought them here and I was glad to talk about Tulsa and show my pride in my hometown.

[rwarn17588]

The people of Tulsa were not given a straight up or down vote on an arena in 2003, despite calls at the time to have it stand on its own. 

Big deal. Vision 2025 passed by a 20-point margin. If the arena were that big of a sticking point, Vision wouldn't have passed by such a huge margin, which I think virtually everyone will describe as a "mandate."