Oklahoma's next Governor

[Conan71]

Any organization, such as the Birchers, that opposed civil rights legislation during the 1950s and '60s has a big credibility problem. The states' rights argument that it used was the same tack that Southern states used to keep black people under the thumb of whites.

The hands-off approach that the John Birch Society espoused helped the South maintain Jim Crow laws for more than 50 years. Just sitting back and waiting for things to change in that region was utterly futile.

If you had a segment of the population that was systematically violating the constitutional rights of minorities, the federal government had better intervene -- especially when those state and local governments refused to do so.

YT makes great points.

Then, by your logic, Rwarn, the Democrat Party should have a serious credibility problem.  You can't skate past that one by saying: "Those Democrats are all Republicans now".  

The honest truth is many people's minds and hearts have changed over the years about civil rights.  I'm sure there are many amongst us, though few will admit it honestly, whose parents were against the CRA's and you'd never have considered that your own parents were racists.

I don't pay close attention to the JBS, but a current or even past characterization of it being a racist group or a front for the KKK is far off-base.  They were formed as an anti-communist group and are against big government, progressive taxation, communism, collectivism, etc.  Their reasons for opposing the CRA's were libertarian in nature, not overt racism.  Though I'm sure there were and are probably racist members of the JBS, as there are racist members of just about every single politically active group in the United States.  The Democrat Party harbors racists to this day (Hymietown, anyone? Diamond merchants?, White Devils?, US of KKK A?) and tolerates them.

No, I'm not a JBS member, but their small government views are very closely aligned with my own.  The whole racist angle is perpetrated by their detractors, much like the way the Tea Party has been treated in liberal circles.  Liberals fear libertarian idealogy, so they attempt to paint people with those views as a bunch of radical, racist, disaffected right wingers.  It's smear, pure and simple.  "Bircher" is a great example of the derision hurled at them.

At least according to the JBS, racism is not considered acceptible nor is tolerated:

"Thursday, 08 April 2010 13:32  
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact Bill HahnThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it , Public Relations Manager,
The John Birch Society

Forged racist letters sent to Oklahoma City media
The John Birch Society denounces letters, racism, and those involved

APPLETON, WIS.—April 8, 2010—A highly disturbing letter printed on "White Christians' Fraternal Order..." letterhead, dated April 7, 2010, was sent to at least one media outlet in Oklahoma City, The Black Chronicle. The letter's return address is for the "John Birch Institute, 701 Colcord Dr, Oklahoma City, OK 73102." That physical street address is actually for the Oklahoma City Police Department.

The phone number listed on the bottom of the letter is the number for The John Birch Society headquarters office in Appleton, WI: 920-749-3780. The letter closes with a twisted version of one of JBS's tag lines: Standing for Family & Freedom.

Bill Hahn, Public Relations Manager for The John Birch Society, said, "We are making this available to alert the Oklahoma City media that the letter did not come from The John Birch Society. We do not know who sent it. We do not approve of the letter's message and strongly denounce both the message and the individual or group involved in this disgusting and illegal activity. We have reported this to the Oklahoma City Police Department. We thank The Black Chronicle for immediately alerting us of the letter and faxing us a copy."

Mr. Russell Perry, President of The Black Chronicle, stated, "I received this irresponsible letter and had it forwarded over to The John Birch Society leadership right away for them to constructively respond to."

Mr. Clark Curry, Chapter Leader for the Oklahoma City local JBS, said of the letter, "This is not the first time that false correspondence has gone out purporting to be from The John Birch Society. The Society knows of several instances over its 52-year history when similar false letters have attempted to align JBS with racist methods or organizations."

Racism is not acceptable and is not tolerated at The John Birch Society.

If you have received one of these letters, please let us and the Oklahoma City Police Department (405-297-1000) know right away."

http://www.jbs.org/press-room/6189-racist-letters-sent-to-okc-media

[heironymouspasparagus]

You youngsters just didn't know the 'Birch' of yesteryear.  Perhaps they have changed.  Perhaps it's just candy coating.  Even Jerry Falwell said some things that were correct and based on sound principals.  Like a stopped watch can get it right twice a day...

[Conan71]

You youngsters just didn't know the 'Birch' of yesteryear.  Perhaps they have changed.  Perhaps it's just candy coating.  Even Jerry Falwell said some things that were correct and based on sound principals.  Like a stopped watch can get it right twice a day...

Or perhaps you were misled on who they were back in the day. 

"Robert Welch explained at the founding meeting of The John Birch Society why he had chosen John as the namesake for the organization. He said, " ...the young man I admire most of all those America has produced was a fundamentalist Baptist missionary named John Birch. My own obsession with this fight against the increasing forces of evil in the world, which ... has caused me to give up business career and income and any prospect of ever having any peace or leisure again during my lifetime, is due in large part to my admiration for John Birch; to my feeling that I simply had to pick up and carry, to the utmost of my ability and energy, the torch of a humane righteousness which he was carrying so well and so faithfully when the Communists struck him down."

FYI- John Birch was gunned down by the Chi Coms in 1945, ten days after the end of the war.

Educate yourself rather than spouting inaccuracies:

http://www.jbs.org/john-birch

[Gaspar]

Educate yourself rather than spouting inaccuracies:

If everyone did that, we wouldn't have much to talk about.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You can't educate yourself by reading their propaganda.  IF misled, then it was them doing the misleading.  The "front" story was anti-commie, but the back story had large additional components.  I lived with it those years.  And saw the reality of their "theories".  And it was more like Jerry Falwell than Billy Graham.  (Two men at opposite ends of the universe, in case the reference is too obscure...)

Or Oral Roberts and Billy Graham.
Or Jim Baker and Billy Graham.
Or deception/lies and honesty/truth.


 

[YoungTulsan]

Just about everything you see, read, or hear in the political spectrum is propaganda, from all sides.  The most important thing is that you understand on your own what principals, ideals, and values you stand for before you get sucked into the influences of a larger group which wants you as their pawn in their power struggle.

Or Oral Roberts and Billy Graham.
Or Jim Baker and Billy Graham.
Or deception/lies and honesty/truth.

This illustrates the problem in a nutshell.  You see what you disagree with and what you agree with as black & white.  One side can do no wrong, the other side can do no right.   My argument here is that no set of ideas is 100% perfect, and on the same token, the opposing set of ideas should never be considered so 100% incorrect that it is completely disqualified from consideration.  And that is just on an idealogical level.  Once you get into these groups of people banding together for political influence (such as JBS, CPUSA, Tea Partiers, moveon.org, etc.) the inherent imperfections are just greater and greater.

If I disagree with the expanded government ideas of Obama, I don't fight the battle by saying "He did such and such therefore all of his ideas are of no value and should be blindly ignored".  No, I offer a difference of opinion and an argument as to why I believe his ideas are the wrong ones.

To be fair, it is quite obvious my political leanings are right of center, and I am not going to argue that there are not plenty of folks on the right who do exactly the thing I am speaking out against.  I see plenty of examples of blind ignorance from the right just as I do from the left.

[heironymouspasparagus]

There are actually things that are black and white. 

But most things are definitely shades of gray.  Kind of the whole point I have tried to make from time to time around here.  Reading so much of this site, Muslims are invariably bad.  Israelis' good.  Bush is invariably good.  Pelosi is invariably bad (in spite of what Tom Coburn says.  Good guy; wish we had another like him instead of Inhofe.) Kennedy bad.  Gingrich good.

Well, you get the idea. 

Having watched Billy Graham from childhood, I can say unequivocally that I do not agree with everything he believed in, but overall, he was such a good man, I have no qualms about regarding him with utmost respect and even affection.

Jerry Falwell, same on the first part - didn't agree with some - did others.  The problem comes about with the total mass of what he truly represented was so repugnant as to offset the things I agreed with.  Jim Baker - same thing.  Oral Roberts - pretty much the same, to a lessor degree (some grayness!!)

So, by your comments, am I to get the impression that the KKK has some redeeming feature that outweighs the total mass of what they are??  I could concede that the Bircher's have some very good Libertarian philosophy they talk about.

And at the very least, they have worked very hard to stop/eliminate the Civil Rights Act.  Now; is talking the good talk better than acting the bad act is bad??  Or vice versa?

What is most disturbing is how proud Brogdon is about his relationship with these acts (the Bircher's acts).  Are you a proud member?  And would you stand up and be counted as one of the proud of those acts?

[YoungTulsan]

Perhaps you have a point with the KKK.   There is an element of black & white there.  The way I would say their ideas should be thrown by the wayside is in the fact that I believe the rights of all individuals to live freely should be protected from oppression by other individuals or conspiring groups.  Granted there was the hypocrisy of slavery during the founding of this nation, I firmly believe the intent of establishing this nation was so all individuals would be protected from the tyranny of the majority.  The Constitution has the ability to be amended, and if such instances of individuals being oppressed were left out of our Constitution, they should absolutely be passed on as Amendments which no corrupt lawmakers, courts, and executives would have the power to get around.  The KKK's views have no threat of becoming legitimized so long as the Constitution stands in their way protecting individuals.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't believe for a second that this country was founded with the intent that all individuals would be protected from the tyranny of the majority.  It is obvious who the founding intent was to serve by just reading who was excluded.  Well over half the population of the country.  Probably close to a 60% super-majority.

Luckily, we have had "reactionary" judges and proactive legislators and executives who finally interpreted the letter of the Constitution from time to time, and amended it, so there has been progress.  A great deal of progress.  We have a wonderful country.  If we can only keep it.

Thought for the day;
There is a tremendous amount of noise and hot air wafted about in recent years about "reactionary judges" and "what a shame it is..." - like it is a bad thing!!  The judiciary that was specifically created to interpret and rule on certain issues that may come up from time to time.

Perhaps someone could enlighten, but for the life of me, I have NEVER been able to find anything, anywhere that would even imply in the slightest degree that the judiciary is to be anything BUT reactionary!  It seems to me that the whole idea is that they BE reactionary, by definition!

They are supposed to sit there and wait until someone brings forward some question regarding the law.  Isn't the the essence of reactionary??

By same token, it seems to me that the other two branches are by definition just the opposite (supposedly) - proactive!

[YoungTulsan]

Of course the judges are supposed to react, I don't see how that can be argued.

The legislature passes laws, and the judiciary can react if they pass something unconstitutional or perhaps contradictory to another law.

The executive carries out the laws.  The judiciary can react if the executive is carrying out the laws written by the legislature in an unconstitutional manner or manner which is unlawful.

I think the term "reactionary" being thrown at judicial nominees has some other context or meaning than just the simple "Judges react to what is legislated and executed by the other two branches of government".  They certainly can't proactively rule on cases that haven't been brought before their courts.

[rwarn17588]

I think the term "reactionary" being thrown at judicial nominees has some other context or meaning than just the simple "Judges react to what is legislated and executed by the other two branches of government".  

Yeah, calling them "reactionary" or "activist" judges can be roughly interpreted as "I didn't like the judge's ruling."

[heironymouspasparagus]

Exactly.

[Red Arrow]

Reading so much of this site, ... Bush is invariably good. 

You must have not been reading the Forum while W was still in office.

Shortly after I joined the Forum, I thought I had fallen into a den of mostly Democrats and other Liberals. The dynamics change depending on who is interested in what topics.

[sgrizzle]

W T F does any of this have to do with Oklahoma Gubernatorial Candidates?

[Townsend]

W T F does any of this have to do with Oklahoma Gubernatorial Candidates?

It's code.