Councilor Turner proposes council-city manager form of government

[waterboy]

As much as i liked the commissioner system, it reaked of special interests and disproportional representation. That's why we changed it to a councilor system so that each area of the city could have some representation. I think it was the result of a threatened lawsuit.

[Gaspar]

As much as i liked the commissioner system, it reaked of special interests and disproportional representation. That's why we changed it to a councilor system so that each area of the city could have some representation. I think it was the result of a threatened lawsuit.

How's that workin for us?

[Conan71]

As much as i liked the commissioner system, it reaked of special interests and disproportional representation. That's why we changed it to a councilor system so that each area of the city could have some representation. I think it was the result of a threatened lawsuit.

Aside from the streets in the street commissioner's neighborhood always being pristine, where's your proof? 

[OldTimeTulsan]

The threatened lawsuit was a false threat utilized by Roger Randle for political objectives. They claimed that commission form govts were all going to be shut down. Didn't happen. All that happened was the demise of the city of Tulsa. The council system is completely broken. Penny ante councilors are easily swayed with everything from jet rides to threats from special interest groups like the FOP. Heavens, look at the quality of the council - most are simply amateurs. The results speak for themselves.

[Jason]

I would rather do away with the city council and go back to  Water & Sewer and Street Comissioners.....
I agree with this... It is frightening to think of the city being run by or even more power given to the likes of Hendersen and Turner... When these guys dont get their way the get up and walk out of meetings like children. I am not disagreeing with the fact that our last few mayors were "lackluster", but giving the city to a bad council is not any better...

[OldTimeTulsan]

Henderson and Turner are no worse than the rest of them. Seems to me they are all shilling for the FOP, running for mayor themselves or just in COMPLETELY over their heads. NONE of them seem to be acting in the best interest of the city. Can't a great city like Tulsa do better than some of these people? It is pathetic, truly, and a tragedy for the good citizens of Tulsa.

[TURobY]

Henderson and Turner are no worse than the rest of them. Seems to me they are all shilling for the FOP, running for mayor themselves or just in COMPLETELY over their heads. NONE of them seem to be acting in the best interest of the city. Can't a great city like Tulsa do better than some of these people? It is pathetic, truly, and a tragedy for the good citizens of Tulsa.

You get what you pay for...

[waterboy]

Aside from the streets in the street commissioner's neighborhood always being pristine, where's your proof? 

Proof? Really? Well, how about this. They were almost all white, middle to upper class men that came from south of 21st street or within the Maple Ridge area. No hispanics, few women (Eagleton is the only one I can recall), no blacks. Same went for the mayors as well. Hmmm.

There were city councils around the country just like ours that were threatened with lawsuits as well. Some changed, some didn't. The lawsuits didn't materialize because most saw the handwriting and the unfairness. As far as their competency, the same argument can be made throughout our legislative branches of government. Democracy just doesn't guarantee competence.

[OldTimeTulsan]

Then by all means, let us have incompetent government. Last time I checked everybody in the city has a vote. Any part of the city can affect the outcome by getting out and voting. Ward politics run by councilors elected by a handful of activists gets us just what we've got. And it is completely broken. I don't think that's good. Life isn't often fair, let's at least consider opting for things that work better, rather than worse.

[waterboy]

Incompetent commissioners destroyed nearby north Tulsa and left it vacant for decades because they feared near northside crime. How'd that work for ya? It wasn't until the last few years that OSU Tulsa started redeveloping that area. Do you think a Northside councillor would allow that sort of thing in today's environment? Not likely.

Incompetent commissioners laid the foundation for 61st and Peoria which is now seeing a crime wave by allowing/encouraging intense densities of apartment complexes. Shadows has alluded to the roadbuilding during that period of time that lined the pockets of commissioners.

The system was unfair because the densest portions of Tulsa lay south of 21st street, East of the river and West of Memorial and no matter what the turnout in East Tulsa, North Tulsa or West Tulsa, it wasn't going to affect any election. Nobody on the ballots looked or sounded like anyone from those areas. The result was that those areas just didn't vote.

So, yeah, if it means all areas of the city have some representation but the city isn't quite as well run for South Tulsans as it used to be, then I'm okay with that.

Note: At one time, in the 1980's I think, my neighborhood was represented by the Mayor, the Fire Commissioner and the Streets Commissioner. And that was just a three block by 6 block area of town. They were what we called, "well heeled oilies". If we had just found some way to balance out the representation a little bit we could have made the commission system work. But no one had any way to do that.

[OldTimeTulsan]

Which councilor is it that you feel well represented by? I can't believe anyone is. I never get a response from inquiries to mine. He seems only to be interested in his political career. These people almost all seem to be driven by either some personal agenda or by some special interest behind them.

OSU Tulsa had virtually nothing to do with city govt.  What little involvement was came from bond issues passed county wide and is not managed by the city.

61st and Peoria is a giant Federal screw-up and will never recover.

Its good that the council govt has solved the crime problems with north Tulsa and elsewhere and is managing the streets well.

The problem is there is no focus in this govt and no accountability. In the bad old days, we at least new how to effect change in segments of the city govt. I remember many times throwing out incumbent commissioners. It makes NO difference to turn out one fool councilor for another.

[waterboy]

Which councilor is it that you feel well represented by? I can't believe anyone is. I never get a response from inquiries to mine. He seems only to be interested in his political career. These people almost all seem to be driven by either some personal agenda or by some special interest behind them.

OSU Tulsa had virtually nothing to do with city govt.  What little involvement was came from bond issues passed county wide and is not managed by the city.

61st and Peoria is a giant Federal screw-up and will never recover.

Its good that the council govt has solved the crime problems with north Tulsa and elsewhere and is managing the streets well.

The problem is there is no focus in this govt and no accountability. In the bad old days, we at least new how to effect change in segments of the city govt. I remember many times throwing out incumbent commissioners. It makes NO difference to turn out one fool councilor for another.

Like I said before, I guess we've lived in different cities the last 40years.

-Maria Barnes. She doesn't represent all my concerns, but definitely represents those of a disparate demographically diverse district (4 d's...cool). I'm sorry your district elected a regular politician.

-You are being naive to believe that OSU Tulsa just stood back and let others define their path. Obviously they were and are involved with planning in Tulsa. But my point is that it was under the commission system that urban renewal was targeted at near north Tulsa. There was crime there involving prostitution, gambling and drugs fed by the whole city. But they were homes built at the same time as north Maple Ridge and Tracy Park where there was also crime. Yet, The North side buildings were flattened and left fallow for years.

-61st and Peoria is a city legacy. The "biggest screw up" was only fueled by Federally backed low interest loans to greedy builders and developers who promptly ravished the land. The commissioners and mayors could have kept the densities more reasonable but our local govt. system (zoning boards, planning commissions, school boards)were dominated by builders who insisted that it was good for Tulsa to plunk a sewage treatment plant at the base of Turkey Mountain and within yards of the heaviest travelled artery into Tulsa so that they could then build apartments and homes for the baby boom generation. Their planned next step was to carve up Riverside neighborhoods with a high speed expressway to whisk people home from an explosively growing downtown. Some competent planners these guys were, eh? That is when folks started to note a problem with the system, when perfectly fine neighborhoods south of downtown were in jeopardy.

-So, all these problems which were created by mismanagement and failed planning during the commission form of govt. we had for decades who pretty much only listened to apartment builders, road builders, heavy construction companies and real estate companies,....are now the fault of a council form of govt.? Yeah, well, it is probably Bush and Clinton's fault too. If our business cycle was on the upswing nationally many of these current infrastructure problems wouldn't be so obvious.

-As far as your last statement, well, you either believe in representative govt. or you don't. Most of our commissioners back then served at the leisure of the entities listed above. If they kept their social lives clean and served their masters wishes, they were pretty much assured a long career. We change representation now every few years. Many of the commissioners and board members were fine leaders, good at their jobs and quite responsive (if you were someone), but the system they operated in didn't work for the whole city and led us into some severe problems that we may never overcome.

[OldTimeTulsan]

I'm glad you are happy with Maria Barnes. Mine is definitely a politician sliding on the legacy of the Lafortune family in Tulsa govt. I have property all over the city, and I have not yet found a councilor interested in my concerns about anything - most recently blatant waste in road construction projects. Turns out that was a result of criminal activity. The councilor did not care - at all.  I very much believe in representative govt. The difficulty with the current system is nobody is responsible for anything, and hence isn't representing anybody but themselves. Kinda keeps it from working. It's more like having no government at all.

Urban renewal was a plague visited upon most cities in the US. It was managed by unaccountable quasi-governmental entities. The latest variety of this disease is Planitulsa. The fact that it happened in commission govt years is hardly due only to that fact. I can say too, that the River Parks, Mohawk Park, the zoo, the PAC, the old convention center, the downtown library, thriving neighborhoods and schools and countless other things that make Tulsa the great city that it is in spite of its leadership today. We can trade points like this forever. The problem is the mess we have today.

The police department is out of control and generally non-responsive, unless one guy holes up in an apt and threatens to kill himself. 33(!) squad cars, an armored car and a swat team showed up and blocked off an entire Brookside neighborhood for half a day. NOTHING came of it. This was recently, during the "understaffed" period The darndest thing is I never found any news coverage on it. The local news seems to be cautious about exposing the pd for what it is. That is NOT understaffed.

The fire department is equally overstaffed.

I defy you to point to a councilor who is not beholden to or afraid of the fire and police unions, and is willing to try to deal with these problems.

The mayor - who was not my choice in the race - is the only one in this game who is trying to get a handle on any of this. Look what the council is doing to him. And in the middle of all the problems in the city, the council finds more energy to argue about gay discrimination and illegal immigration - hardly critical issues to the daily problems of running the city.

I'm sorry. You will not convince me. This is not working.

[custosnox]

The mayor - who was not my choice in the race - is the only one in this game who is trying to get a handle on any of this. Look what the council is doing to him. And in the middle of all the problems in the city, the council finds more energy to argue about gay discrimination and illegal immigration - hardly critical issues to the daily problems of running the city.

So someone who demands every department make budget cuts, then demands that his departments budget is increased is doing what is best for the city and not his own self interests?  While I could sit here all day rehashing everything that he has done that has been counterproductive, this is one of the most blaring examples of how he will spite Tulsa just to make sure his good ole boys are taken care of.  Yes, the Mayor/council bickering is getting old, but trying to lay this all at the feet of the council is dellusional, to say the least. 

[waterboy]

I'm glad you are happy with Maria Barnes. Mine is definitely a politician sliding on the legacy of the Lafortune family in Tulsa govt. I have property all over the city, and I have not yet found a councilor interested in my concerns about anything - most recently blatant waste in road construction projects. Turns out that was a result of criminal activity. The councilor did not care - at all.  I very much believe in representative govt. The difficulty with the current system is nobody is responsible for anything, and hence isn't representing anybody but themselves. Kinda keeps it from working. It's more like having no government at all.

Urban renewal was a plague visited upon most cities in the US. It was managed by unaccountable quasi-governmental entities. The latest variety of this disease is Planitulsa. The fact that it happened in commission govt years is hardly due only to that fact. I can say too, that the River Parks, Mohawk Park, the zoo, the PAC, the old convention center, the downtown library, thriving neighborhoods and schools and countless other things that make Tulsa the great city that it is in spite of its leadership today. We can trade points like this forever. The problem is the mess we have today.

The police department is out of control and generally non-responsive, unless one guy holes up in an apt and threatens to kill himself. 33(!) squad cars, an armored car and a swat team showed up and blocked off an entire Brookside neighborhood for half a day. NOTHING came of it. This was recently, during the "understaffed" period The darndest thing is I never found any news coverage on it. The local news seems to be cautious about exposing the pd for what it is. That is NOT understaffed.

The fire department is equally overstaffed.

I defy you to point to a councilor who is not beholden to or afraid of the fire and police unions, and is willing to try to deal with these problems.

The mayor - who was not my choice in the race - is the only one in this game who is trying to get a handle on any of this. Look what the council is doing to him. And in the middle of all the problems in the city, the council finds more energy to argue about gay discrimination and illegal immigration - hardly critical issues to the daily problems of running the city.

I'm sorry. You will not convince me. This is not working.

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm just as unhappy with our current state of affairs in this city as most anyone else on this forum. I just see it as having happened over a long period of time and not by partisan politics, firemen or police. Perhaps it is coincidental with past organizational systems and leadership or maybe it is just the nature of the maturation of a city in the time period it is growing. I couldn't say for sure. But our problems now are neither the fault of, nor can they be cured by, this council system. It is pitting control oriented sophomoric mayoral leadership against laymen councillors. Neither has a long term view tempered with government experience. They get mired in details and find it easier to blame each other and work towards the next election. Barnes may not be the best councillor I ever had but she was better than Gomez for my interests. The only councilor who ever actually visited me was a Republican from West Tulsa. That impressed me alot.

The missing piece here is the competence that long term mayors and commissioners got from experience or that a well trained competent city manager might possess. That is why I am open to the suggestion.