Home invasions

[DolfanBob]

If your home entry wasn't designed that way in the first place, chances are the entire assembly can be kicked in pretty easily as it will separate from the framing.

A cheap pump shotgun is all you need, and a better defense than one of the reinforced door kits and about the same cost.  They also double well for a ball bat- a well-weighted one at that. That "cha-chack" sound is unmistakable and birdshot is a pretty safe home-defense round.

Years ago a friend of mine showed me his illegal sawed off shotgun. He lived in a apartment. I asked him why he had a shotgun and his response was, "cha-chack" Even if your intruder doesnt speak English. That sound is a universal language. I have never forgot that.

On another note. A Police Officer told a group of employee's that I was a part of. If you are ever going to post a Bad dog or security dog on site sign. Make sure it has a picture of a mean looking dog on it, because there again. Not all of your intruders are going to speak English. I never forgot that one either.

[TeeDub]

Take my money and rape me but please be gentle.

Quoted for truth.

If you can't be bothered to defend yourself, you should expect the worst.   And hopefully your wife/kids aren't home.

[Gaspar]

Actually, uprooting worked in the area just north of downtown in the 1970's. It too was overun with drugs, gambling, prostitution and crime. And just like now, it was fueled by the rest of the city and the crime was starting to spread into downtown, Maple Ridge and Brookside. Many Maple Ridge homes still have bars on them from that time period. The city simply used federal funds designed for urban renewal and wiped the area clean in hopes it would make a buffer zone and be worthy of redevelopment by area institutions. It worked just like it had before. Second street was also known as skid row in the 60's. Same thing happened then. We developed the area into banks, PAC and hotels.

Unfortunately, we had some serious economic problems in the early 70's that were a result of the oil "shortages". So the area didn't take off like they had hoped. Leadership changed, politics changed and funding changed.  And yes, the destruction was racist in its execution. The owners of those properties didn't have much representation. We can do better now.

You don't redeposit those people. Most of them don't even live in the area. They are strong arming family and friends for a place to do business. They don't own any property, they don't rent, they use the area. In fact, many of these new aggressive criminals are displaced from southern Louisiana because of Katrina. Once the area is no longer valuable they will disperse to other more hospitable areas, they will leave for other cities or they will get arrested and jailed. Its an ongoing battle, much like the war on terrorism. Its not that complicated, its nature. They are small businessmen with no morals or integrity looking to sell a product to a gullible market. Sort of like fake estate sales. When their market place isn't producing they move on.

Guns and other defenses are the "bug spray". Cops and jails are the "bug spray". I have no problem with bug spray. But they are a temporary diversion for the ants and termites. They will keep coming back as long as the environment is attractive to them.

That makes some good sense.
We can make the environment unattractive by making it more difficult for them to find sanctuary there. It's a law enforcement issue.  Unfortunately when an area gets as bad as 61st and Riverside/Peoria it's difficult to enforce the law without risking the lives of officers and putting the PD in at a significant liability for everything from profiling to racism to misconduct.

[Gaspar]

Years ago a friend of mine showed me his illegal sawed off shotgun. He lived in a apartment. I asked him why he had a shotgun and his response was, "cha-chack" Even if your intruder doesnt speak English. That sound is a universal language. I have never forgot that.

On another note. A Police Officer told a group of employee's that I was a part of. If you are ever going to post a Bad dog or security dog on site sign. Make sure it has a picture of a mean looking dog on it, because there again. Not all of your intruders are going to speak English. I never forgot that one either.

Conan, your dog is probably not adequate.

[waterboy]

You are correct, guns don't solve problems.  They kill them, or make them run away.

Criminals prey on the weak.  They seek to take from those less likely to resist.  When they encounter resistance they move on.  They don't want to get shot or go to jail.

As for location, we have several places that are sanctuaries for criminals.  Many of the people we end up catching in these places are already felons with existing warrants.  It seems to me that we are not doing a good enough job of rounding up our existing documented and wanted criminals.  It also seems to make sense that sweeping some of these sanctuaries (as we have done in the past) would go a long way to deter crime, and make criminals feel less welcome in these neighborhoods.

Coordinated sweeps like the ones we've done previously at Sand Dollar take dozens of criminals off the streets, and are far more cost effective than individual efforts to target and capture wanted felons. 

If we do that Waterboy, then we won't have to shoot them.    See, Win/Win.

These guys prey on the inattentive, the weak, the armed or just about anyone who has something they want. They went through a guy's garage, tied up his family and stole his guns. These are crazy mf's.

However, I don't totally disagree with you. Sweeps are good, but they are merely bug bombs. They'll work temporarily then you have to apply again. And, they are costly to the taxpayer and weigh down the system.

Yes, Johnson Park is only one of the nodes of business in the city. How many sweeps we can handle is unknown to me, but we could target at least 5 that I know of (Boulder Plaza, Northwest Tulsa between Chas Page and 244, 31st and Garnett, Johnson Park, Far North and 41st and Darlington) and they would scurry away and return within weeks.

There is an unholy alliance among landlords, lawyers, dealers, importers and gangs. It is systemic. Ever see the Untouchables? Unless you are able to out weapon your enemy, don't start escalating the battle. Right now these criminals are as well or better armed than those who hate them. And they will endeavor to keep that balance.

Take their markets away from them and no amount of weaponry will matter. They will move on or dissipate within the community where they lose their power.

[Conan71]

See, this is a problem I have in dealing with crime: we don't want crime, but when it's time to figure out tangible solutions, it seems to revolve around black communities or Hispanic communities and it eventually is called racism.

I remember the Main & Haskell area was still populated with whore houses and juice joints in the early/mid 1980's before that was finally flattened for urban renewal, so it was a little later when the problem was finally dealt with closer to downtown and there's still a few blocks east of Denver north of the tracks which are still seedy at best.  That was a black neighborhood and it was crime-riddled.  I really don't see how razing this skank pit really improved anything.  Section 8 housing was created in the 61st & Peoria area and the legacy lives on there.  Another section 8 area will need to be provided if we nuked and paved this strip you originally mentioned.

One difference I can think of between 1980 Main & Haskell and 2010 61st & Riverside is back then, you might hear of an occasional stabbing which resulted from a drunken dice or card game or perhaps a dead-beat junkie being beaten to death over unpaid drugs.  You didn't hear as much about 16 year old kids shooting 16 year old kids and we didn't seem to have the street gang problem as we have now.

[TeeDub]

Take their markets away from them and no amount of weaponry will matter. They will move on or dissipate within the community where they lose their power.

I guess that brings up the whole "legalization" argument.   If you bring the price of their product down to where it isn't profitable, you reach the same result without filling prisons and needing an ever increasing police force.

[SXSW]

Is it really escalated, or is crime just reported more than it used to be?  I've always considered most neighborhoods in Tulsa to be relatively safe.  I don't own a gun but keep my doors locked and turn my alarm on at night.  I've been robbed once, when I lived in Denver.  Thieve(s) broke down the door and stole electronics while I was at work.  My friends there say it has only gotten worse.  I think if I did buy a gun and the alarm went off I would go to the bathroom, lock the door, and if they really want to get me I would shoot once they barge through.  

[Conan71]

Conan, your dog is probably not adequate.

Yeah, but Butch thinks he's tough 

You don't think this would scare someone out of their wits...well okay, me either but he's a great companion.

[Gaspar]

As of last week they've been stealing catalytic converters at residences and businesses around the 61st and Peoria area.

That's an adorable cat you have Conan.

[waterboy]

See, this is a problem I have in dealing with crime: we don't want crime, but when it's time to figure out tangible solutions, it seems to revolve around black communities or Hispanic communities and it eventually is called racism.

I remember the Main & Haskell area was still populated with whore houses and juice joints in the early/mid 1980's before that was finally flattened for urban renewal, so it was a little later when the problem was finally dealt with closer to downtown and there's still a few blocks east of Denver north of the tracks which are still seedy at best.  That was a black neighborhood and it was crime-riddled.  I really don't see how razing this skank pit really improved anything.  Section 8 housing was created in the 61st & Peoria area and the legacy lives on there.  Another section 8 area will need to be provided if we nuked and paved this strip you originally mentioned.

One difference I can think of between 1980 Main & Haskell and 2010 61st & Riverside is back then, you might hear of an occasional stabbing which resulted from a drunken dice or card game or perhaps a dead-beat junkie being beaten to death over unpaid drugs.  You didn't hear as much about 16 year old kids shooting 16 year old kids and we didn't seem to have the street gang problem as we have now.

timing was spread out. The effort started in the 60's with the 1st and second street area. They then moved into the near north area. Perhaps it was the early eighties when they finished razing everything. But it was effective. Believe me, once that area had no empty houses to operate from the problem subsided. (or moved on) I had lawyer friends who owned some of those properties. They would rent them weekly with a week in advance because they knew they would get 5-6 weeks a month. Either the tenant would OD, be knifed or shot and they could rent it again immediately. Always for cash of course.

We had a different attitude about gangs then too. It was controversial. Some folks denied they existed which was silly. Now, there is no denying it.

It was racist then because the areas were more minority oriented and they simply had no representation. It just can't be denied. Now it is more about poverty and low moral values than race. It just happens to be true that the section 8 housing is full of minority tenants. At least they have some power to vote on their destiny however. 

To me the problem is an erosion of ethics and integrity. Everyone is stealing from everyone else. Bankers, lawyers, oil companies, auto dealers, mechanics, roofers, gangsters and businessmen. The black guys and hispanics using guns are much more visible though. I can't tell you how depressing it is to see people stuffing their clothes with product where I work. They steal software that is designed to keep hackers from stealing their computer files! They steal counterfeit pens! They steal rental forms, contracts and hard drives! These are not common criminals, they are landlords and small business people. Its depressing to me and to other decent minority folks who are their victims.

Anyway, we can decide as a community to find other ways besides section 8 housing to help less fortunate. It isn't a requirement.

[SXSW]

Anyway, we can decide as a community to find other ways besides section 8 housing to help less fortunate. It isn't a requirement.

What is the funding source for the Tulsa Housing Authority?  Federal, state, local?  A mix?  It seems if city funds are going towards public housing that would be a good way to save money.  Get rid of the housing projects and the people who live there either move to another city or into market-rate housing.  Not saying everyone who lives in government housing is a criminal but there are better ways to spend taxpayer money, IMO. 

[waterboy]

I guess that brings up the whole "legalization" argument.   If you bring the price of their product down to where it isn't profitable, you reach the same result without filling prisons and needing an ever increasing police force.

Though that looks appealing, I don't want to lower the moral level of the entire population by legalizing drugs that have a history of deleterious effects on humanity, in an effort to decrease crime. You in effect merely re-define what is a crime by raising its threshold. I could however support a system that forces rehabilitation like we do with DUI's or traffic tickets. A first arrest for drugs could result in a simple fine. Now that we know you have bought before, your second ticket involves forced monitoring, rehab or public service.  

Their product will always be profitable, just like offshore drilling, but may be more troublesome in some cities or some areas than others. We make it so easy for them by providing these "centers of commerce". Force them into the light and they will scurry away.

[nathanm]

If your home entry wasn't designed that way in the first place, chances are the entire assembly can be kicked in pretty easily as it will separate from the framing.

The whole point is that the steel wraps around the framing members surrounding the door, reinforcing them. Short of breaking down the entire wall or the door itself splitting in half, it isn't coming open without a key. Well, unless they buy a battering ram and 3 burly cops from the surplus auction.

Granted, it does mean much more damage if they're successful, but it also works when I'm not home. I figure a broken foot will be a good lesson to them.

[custosnox]

The whole point is that the steel wraps around the framing members surrounding the door, reinforcing them. Short of breaking down the entire wall or the door itself splitting in half, it isn't coming open without a key. Well, unless they buy a battering ram and 3 burly cops from the surplus auction.

Granted, it does mean much more damage if they're successful, but it also works when I'm not home. I figure a broken foot will be a good lesson to them.

Personally, I would like to test one of those setups to see if they work as well as they claim.