Global Warming/Climate Change/Global Weirding?

[Red Arrow]

He might also look at the present value of the credits and decide it's best to sell them for less than he "paid" for them (which is actually what he paid for them, since he also got a more efficient factory with a lower energy bill out of the deal)

If we were there, this conversation would be pointless. Already much of our energy is generated at a fairly low GHG cost, we just need more solar, wind, and nukes. We could be there in 20 years if we actually worked at it. We seem to prefer prepackaged "solutions" that don't actually solve anything but sound good, though.

The only reason to sell credits for less than their present value, including a lower energy bill, is because the buyer is his "brother-in-law".

You forgot hydro-electric although finding a river to dam without objection will be nearly as likely as building a nuke facility anytime within our lifetimes.  Storage technology will need to be vastly improved before solar and wind can take over.  We have had the discussion before about going to DC instead of AC which would make "batteries" a player.

[Gaspar]

I have measured the carbon footprint of this thread and come to the conclusion that it warrants the purchase of a carbon credit.  Send me some money and I'll pick one up.

[Red Arrow]

I have measured the carbon footprint of this thread and come to the conclusion that it warrants the purchase of a carbon credit.  Send me some money and I'll pick one up.

I wouldn't want you to hurt your back lifting the credits needed for this thread so I will decline to send any money.  I'm just looking out for you.

[Gaspar]

I wouldn't want you to hurt your back lifting the credits needed for this thread so I will decline to send any money.  I'm just looking out for you.

What's more important?

My safety and wellbeing or the fate of the world?

Get your priorities straight and send me $100!

[nathanm]

The only reason to sell credits for less than their present value, including a lower energy bill, is because the buyer is his "brother-in-law".

I didn't say the credits would be sold for less than their present value. They might, however, be sold for less than the cost of the upgrades, because that cost bought more than just the credit. Allocating the entire cost to the carbon credits is silly.

[Gaspar]

I didn't say the credits would be sold for less than their present value. They might, however, be sold for less than the cost of the upgrades, because that cost bought more than just the credit. Allocating the entire cost to the carbon credits is silly.

I'm going to work on a carbon lease program, where you can just lease carbon credits for a predetermined period of time and then return them.  For instance, Algore could lease 436 credits for 36 hours so he could fly his G5 to Aruba for a weekend, but then those same credits could be leased or sold upon his return.

I'm not sure what the depreciation on a used carbon credit is though.  Either way I will probably establish a "Certified Used" carbon credit program where we polish them up before we sell them.

The best part of my plan is no matter whether you lease or buy your carbon credits, they are delivered in an ornate rose-wood and ivory box lined with baby seal down.  The use of the credits completely covers the carbon cost of the packaging. With the purchase of 10,000 credits we will award you an extra 50 credits to burn a tire for no reason. Brilliant!

[Red Arrow]

they are delivered in an ornate rose-wood and ivory box lined with baby seal down. 

I think you will need to buy ivory credits to line your rose-wood box.  That's OK, your customers will be more than happy to accept the higher price of the fancy container so you will be able to pass the cost along.

[Red Arrow]

I didn't say the credits would be sold for less than their present value. They might, however, be sold for less than the cost of the upgrades, because that cost bought more than just the credit. Allocating the entire cost to the carbon credits is silly.

I can see that the upgrade cost to achieve compliance would not need to be included in the credit cost but I will need more convincing that the additional cost to exceed the requirements will not be the price of a purchased credit.

If I buy a gas miser to replace my present car I will get a benefit of lower gasoline expenses.  If I decide to sell half of the car to you (co-owner, not saw the car in half) because I don't need it full time, I will charge you half the price of the car, not reduced by my lower gasoline bills.

[nathanm]

I can see that the upgrade cost to achieve compliance would not need to be included in the credit cost but I will need more convincing that the additional cost to exceed the requirements will not be the price of a purchased credit.

If I buy a gas miser to replace my present car I will get a benefit of lower gasoline expenses.  If I decide to sell half of the car to you (co-owner, not saw the car in half) because I don't need it full time, I will charge you half the price of the car, not reduced by my lower gasoline bills.

Sure, but if you own a factory and you would like to increase production but can't due to being at your GHG emissions limit already, you will upgrade your plant if the cost is less than what you can reasonably expect to make on the increased sales. If the incremental cost of increasing energy efficiency beyond what you actually need is lower than what you can sell (or more likely lease, since you may need them in the future) the credits for, you're probably going to do that.

If credits are scarce for whatever reason, the cost will be higher than the upgrade cost. If they're not, they may not be. That's OK, though. If credits are plentiful we clearly are meeting GHG reduction goals.

[heironymouspasparagus]

You forgot hydro-electric although finding a river to dam without objection will be nearly as likely as building a nuke facility anytime within our lifetimes.  Storage technology will need to be vastly improved before solar and wind can take over.  We have had the discussion before about going to DC instead of AC which would make "batteries" a player.

DC is the ultimate 'niche' play.  AC will stay entrenched for long distance, for a long time.

Wind/solar/batteries with tru-sine inverters are already the best way to go for many high infrastructure cost applications.  And cost half what new nukes cost, as we have seen previously.

Would you rather pay the utility $40,000 to bring in power to a new country house, 1/2 mile down the road, or buy your own "power plant" for $25,000 - with small propane backup generator for bridging the occasional gaps. 


http://www.bloomenergy.com/

[patric]

Greenland ice sheet melted at unprecedented rate during July

The Greenland ice sheet melted at a faster rate this month than at any other time in recorded history, with virtually the entire ice sheet showing signs of thaw.

The rapid melting over just four days was captured by three satellites. It has stunned and alarmed scientists, and deepened fears about the pace and future consequences of climate change.
In a statement posted on NASA's website on Tuesday, scientists admitted the satellite data was so striking they thought at first there had to be a mistake.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/24/greenland-ice-sheet-thaw-nasa

[AquaMan]

Greenland ice sheet melted at unprecedented rate during July

The Greenland ice sheet melted at a faster rate this month than at any other time in recorded history, with virtually the entire ice sheet showing signs of thaw.

The rapid melting over just four days was captured by three satellites. It has stunned and alarmed scientists, and deepened fears about the pace and future consequences of climate change.
In a statement posted on NASA's website on Tuesday, scientists admitted the satellite data was so striking they thought at first there had to be a mistake.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/jul/24/greenland-ice-sheet-thaw-nasa

Quick. Someone fly Inhofe out there to confirm this as lunacy. Then send out some real estate people so we can start developing the area...

[Conan71]

In other news:

Wagner said researchers don't know how much of Greenland's ice melted, but it seems to be freezing again.

Wagner and other scientists said because this Greenland-wide melting has happened before they can't yet determine if this is a natural rare event or one triggered by man-made global warming. But they do know that the edges of Greenland's ice sheets have already been thinning because of climate change.

Summer in Greenland has been freakishly warm so far. That's because of frequent high-pressure systems that have parked over the island, bringing warm, clear weather that melts ice and snow, explained University of Georgia climatologist Thomas Mote.

He and others say it's similar to the high-pressure systems that have parked over the American Midwest bringing record-breaking warmth and drought.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/climate/story/2012-07-25/greenland-ice-sheet-melt-climate-change/56479518/1

[carltonplace]

If Inhoff heads that way can he bring some of the ice melt back and drop it on Oklahoma please?

[Conan71]

If Inhoff heads that way can he bring some of the ice melt back and drop it on Oklahoma please?

He can barely land a plane safely, the last thing we want is for him to drop anything from a plane.