Global Warming/Climate Change/Global Weirding?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Why exactly does it matter what someone else's understanding or interpretation of "settled" science means?  If the only variable in the current hypothesis is that CO2 leads warming that seems to be the popular consensus at this time.  What do we say if the observations of the next 10 years are that it's cooler but CO2 remains static or rises slightly?  

Let's face it though, are we really that confident in our ability to estimate global average temperatures 800,000 years ago to within 2 degrees F? (vis-a-vis 2016 being the hottest year on record in 800,000 years).  Sorry, I'm still a bit skeptical of that claim as that trusts that our methodology in estimating temperatures is correct and that's all we have to go on as we did not have global weather stations 800,000 years ago.

Science evolves and sophisticated climatology really is in it's infancy.  They didn't have computerized models and 6000+ data points with ships, bouys, and satellites when global warming was first postulated in the 1800's, CF.  For everything we do know, there is so much more to learn.

And what do we really care about here?  That I share the same beliefs in climate change that you do?  I figure that matters as much as whether or not you share the same belief in what I believe makes a great wine or beer.

Or is the real point that people should be trying to achieve a smaller carbon footprint in their own little world to help lower emissions, which I've always said can't be a bad thing?  I'm willing to bet since we moved to rural New Mexico that MC and I probably have a smaller carbon footprint than most people in this discussion.  Our B & B is built to take advantage of the sun to provide a good deal of heating and we don't even have central A/C because summers are so temperate.  When we build our shop building on the property, I'm seriously mulling over either wind or solar to power it since we have an abundance of both.  On the average week, I doubt we go through more than 10 gal of gasoline these days and that includes making a weekly shopping trip to Taos or Raton.  We try and run whatever errands we can by bike or foot and I don't have to commute to a job every day.  I don't go so far as to purchase carbon credits which I think is total bullshit and profiteering off ignorance, but I'd say we are doing our part in our own way.  That IS the point, isn't it?

Temperature;

https://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/briefs/schmidt_01/


CO2 is easier - direct measurement of ice entrapped gases.  Just under 300 ppm was the high mark for last 400,000 years until about 1950.   It's ALL man!

https://climate.nasa.gov/climate_resources/24/

https://scholarsandrogues.com/2012/01/28/csfe-co2-in-800000-year-old-air/

[cannon_fodder]

CO2 is easier - direct measurement of ice entrapped gases.  Just under 300 ppm was the high mark for last 400,000 years until about 1950.   It's ALL man!

That's sexist.  Oprah's private jet does just as much to murder the planet as Al Gores.   

[heironymouspasparagus]

That's sexist.  Oprah's private jet does just as much to murder the planet as Al Gores.   

Got me!

You are right - women, too!!   Women probably even more so...!

Ohhh....that is gonna get me in sooo much trouble..!!

[Conan71]

Which leads to number 2.  Yes, lowering your footprint at the micro level is great.  However, this is a macro problem.  If the threat is as bad as it may be, states like Florida and Louisiana (not to mention nations with similar topography) should be calling for drastic action.   As long as we continue to debate a settled topic (the "if") we cannot devout full effort into researching the "so what" element of the question.  What is likely to happen and what is the best way to address those issues?

It appears it is a compounding issue.  Small changes 40 years ago likely would have had a larger impact than drastic changes 40 years from now.  If you want, we can boil it all down to economics:  we need to figure out the most likely effects and the least damaging way of addressing them.  Our current plan is to wait and see if we need to panic.  That seems like a bad plan.


PS.  Am I still invited to the ranch.   

Of course you are still invited!  I just have a penchant for verbally jousting with attorneys with a 160 IQ.  It's how I roll.

I've got to get busy selling mass quantities of combustion equipment which will belch more CO2 into the atmosphere at the moment, but longer post later.

One thought: if we are too critical of individual efforts being futile though, then you are basically saying changing individual habits collectively is worthless.  If CO2 is the issue, then it takes some contribution from every consumer whether it is industrial, commercial, or individual.

[Red Arrow]

I just have a penchant for verbally jousting with attorneys with a 160 IQ. 

You like hanging out with the mentally challenged I guess.

[Red Arrow]

If CO2 is the issue, then it takes some contribution from every consumer whether it is industrial, commercial, or individual.

I will try to breath shallowly.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I've got to get busy selling mass quantities of combustion equipment which will belch more CO2 into the atmosphere at the moment, but longer post later.

One thought: if we are too critical of individual efforts being futile though, then you are basically saying changing individual habits collectively is worthless.  If CO2 is the issue, then it takes some contribution from every consumer whether it is industrial, commercial, or individual.

Chainsaw!!  Make lots of fumes!!

Everyone has a hand in this.  7.5 billion of us.  Plus hundreds of millions of cattle.  Plus cutting down the rain forests at 40 acres a minute - this is a biggie!!  According to these people - 8.5 million hectares a year;

http://rainforests.mongabay.com/facts/rainforest-facts.html

[TeeDub]

Rise in atmospheric CO2 slowed by green vegetation
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37909361


Cliff Notes (picture version)

[heironymouspasparagus]

Rise in atmospheric CO2 slowed by green vegetation
http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-37909361


Cliff Notes (picture version)

https://www.acf.org/

[TeeDub]

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will not list the Ozark chinquapin, a chestnut tree,   under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) because it is widespread in the interior highlands of Arkansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma.


We helped plant trees with my oldest's Scout group.... 


The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago, the second best time is now. Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree.

[heironymouspasparagus]

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service will not list the Ozark chinquapin, a chestnut tree,   under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) because it is widespread in the interior highlands of Arkansas, Missouri, and Oklahoma.


We helped plant trees with my oldest's Scout group.... 


The best time to plant a tree is twenty years ago, the second best time is now. Someone's sitting in the shade today because someone planted a tree.

I am gonna join the list for American Chestnut seeds and plant them in a place I know of in east TN.  Gonna put one here, too, just to see if it works.  Costs $300 for 4 seeds and there is a waiting list. 

The ones in TN will be replacing a huge tree that died and was cut down in the 50's on the family place - the remains of the stump are still up on the side of the mountain and is probably about 8 ft across.  Old family pic shows a bunch of kids (SWMBO included) sitting on the edge of it...her and 5 or 6 of her siblings.  They all fit.


Planting trees is an obsession with me, but I finally discovered the limits of what one should do in a neighborhood landscape.  No Silver Maple.  No Burr Oak.  No Ash, except for Autumn Purple Ash.  No Sweet Gum.  NEVER a Bradford Pear!!!!    And only MAYBE on Pin Oaks IF one has an oversized yard - but mostly no!!

Say yes to Redbud - especially Oklahoma Redbud.  Yes to Dogwood.  Maybe yes to Chinese Pistache.  And Japanese Maple of pretty much any variety.

[TheArtist]

I am gonna join the list for American Chestnut seeds and plant them in a place I know of in east TN.  Gonna put one here, too, just to see if it works.  Costs $300 for 4 seeds and there is a waiting list. 

The ones in TN will be replacing a huge tree that died and was cut down in the 50's on the family place - the remains of the stump are still up on the side of the mountain and is probably about 8 ft across.  Old family pic shows a bunch of kids (SWMBO included) sitting on the edge of it...her and 5 or 6 of her siblings.  They all fit.


Planting trees is an obsession with me, but I finally discovered the limits of what one should do in a neighborhood landscape.  No Silver Maple.  No Burr Oak.  No Ash, except for Autumn Purple Ash.  No Sweet Gum.  NEVER a Bradford Pear!!!!    And only MAYBE on Pin Oaks IF one has an oversized yard - but mostly no!!

Say yes to Redbud - especially Oklahoma Redbud.  Yes to Dogwood.  Maybe yes to Chinese Pistache.  And Japanese Maple of pretty much any variety.

In our yard we have a pine tree, a pecan tree, blue spruce, cedar, redbuds, Japanese maple, catalpa, sycamore, 2 pear trees, an elm, bald cypress, mimosa, holly berry tree, crape myrtles, figs, Italian Cypress, Arborvitae...  And don't get me started on the number and types of shrubs lol.

[heironymouspasparagus]

In our yard we have a pine tree, a pecan tree, blue spruce, cedar, redbuds, Japanese maple, catalpa, sycamore, 2 pear trees, an elm, bald cypress, mimosa, holly berry tree, crape myrtles, figs, Italian Cypress, Arborvitae...  And don't get me started on the number and types of shrubs lol.

Sounds like my yard - in 65ft by 124 ft, with a house in the middle of it.  We have a sign referring to the jungle!   The great part is that it literally takes about 20 minutes to mow what little grass is not in garden beds!  


Pine tree - I see thousands of pine trees in the area and many do well, but SO many die an early death - because the owners don't understand the relationship between pine needles on the ground and the health and well being of the tree!  They need that mat of needles to thrive!  When they don't have it, you see them become susceptible and succumb to disease!  Every time!!

The lazier one might appear to be - by leaving the needles on the ground around the base of the tree - the better the tree will be!!


And that bald cypress is gonna get into your foundation and WILL damage it !!   Probably the top of the list of trees to not put in the landscape!   Worse than Silver Maple.

I love Mimosa - and the only downside is they are brittle and they leave seeds.  I am willing to endure both for that tree/bush/shrub/whatever it is...

Love Sycamore, too!  I have a Walnut waiting for me to cut down and a couple of Sycamores!   Both have beautiful wood for woodworking!!

How are you getting a Blue Spruce to survive here??  Is it in amongst the rest of the trees?

[Conan71]

On our property, we have some spruce, some sort of evergreen which has been groomed into a large Bansai, cedar, some sort of willow which appears indigenous to our area or elevation, pine, yucca, and choya and paddle cacti on our property.  There's pinion pine in the arroyo behind our place but thus far I've not been fortunate to get to the pine cones when the nuts are good and ripe or before the wildlife gets to them.  The only thing missing to me are Aspens.

Aspens have almost a spiritual presence to me, so moving to this part of the country I don't have to go far to be amongst them.  I'm planning to plant some on the western part of our property so they can be enjoyed a little closer in.

There's a local arborist I've befriended, who after getting a couple of racks of my spare ribs, wants to assure I have plenty of apple wood at my disposal.  He expressed concern that Aspens might not survive at our elevation (6400' MSL) as it can get pretty dry, but I'm committed to keeping them well-watered as need be.  I also pointed out there's a stand of Aspens in a yard near 27th & Toledo in Tulsa which have managed to come back year after year at around 700MSL so it can be done with the right care.  Getting good suckers off the root system is the trick to starting off on a good basis with them.

[heironymouspasparagus]

On our property, we have some spruce, some sort of evergreen which has been groomed into a large Bansai, cedar, some sort of willow which appears indigenous to our area or elevation, pine, yucca, and choya and paddle cacti on our property.  There's pinion pine in the arroyo behind our place but thus far I've not been fortunate to get to the pine cones when the nuts are good and ripe or before the wildlife gets to them.  The only thing missing to me are Aspens.

Aspens have almost a spiritual presence to me, so moving to this part of the country I don't have to go far to be amongst them.  I'm planning to plant some on the western part of our property so they can be enjoyed a little closer in.

There's a local arborist I've befriended, who after getting a couple of racks of my spare ribs, wants to assure I have plenty of apple wood at my disposal.  He expressed concern that Aspens might not survive at our elevation (6400' MSL) as it can get pretty dry, but I'm committed to keeping them well-watered as need be.  I also pointed out there's a stand of Aspens in a yard near 27th & Toledo in Tulsa which have managed to come back year after year at around 700MSL so it can be done with the right care.  Getting good suckers off the root system is the trick to starting off on a good basis with them.

Love Aspens!   Wish they would grow here, but I think a small stand "misses" the collective way of growing - needs many more to thrive.  Hope they work out for you!  That would be magnificent!!

No birch??  That seems a little odd, but I don't really know your climate.  If you have moisture for a willow, I would think birch would do well, too.  Pic of willow??

I think a pinion pine would be almost worth putting a wildlife proof fence around just to get the seeds!!