The New Mosque

[Townsend]

Fine, four blocks from Ground Zero. Apparently there is already a mosque four blocks away, the Masjid Manhattan, that New Yorkers are not upset about. Happy now?

What if the the number 4 or the view from that spot or anything else having to do with it was offensive to any of the families?  Would you support them and say 4 blocks was too close?

[nathanm]

Fine, four blocks from Ground Zero. Apparently there is already a mosque four blocks away, the Masjid Manhattan, that New Yorkers are not upset about. Happy now?

The building is currently being used as a mosque. It will be more like a Y than a mosque after it gets rebuilt. Pull the other one.

[Conan71]

And if you want to know why 70% of Americans are against it, it might have something to do with the lies being peddled by Fox News. If I believed that it was going to be some sort of training camp for terrorists and all the other BS being said about it, I wouldn't want it built anywhere.

revealing that 68% of Americans oppose the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal.

Hmmm, yeah, we all know how much Democrats and liberals love to watch Fox.  I also suspect 1/2 or less of independents pay much attention to Fox, since they are independent and Fox has a reputation as the RNC house organ.

[Gaspar]

Let me ask you this:

If 70% of Americans or whatever the percentage is thinks this is:

A) A bad idea
B) Insensitive to victims and survivors
C) A provocative monument to an Islamic victory

How does that build a bridge of goodwill between Muslims and non-Muslims? Your logic is along the lines of saying we need to allow illegal immigration from south of the border to continue unabated and then everyone else assimilate to Mexican language and culture.  Since when did minority rights trump all else, including common sense? 

This brings up an interesting point.  Clubs, religions, and cults are all motivated by increasing membership.  It's obvious that the developers understand that this location will attract worshipers.  As a controversial mosque, will it attract controversial Muslims?

The site is in a commercial district, and locations have been offered a couple of blocks away in residential zones where many of the current worshipers reside (they have been worshiping in the vacant Burlington Coat Factory building for years now).  The location is obviously very important, so much so that the developers are willing to require worshipers an extra trek to attend, rather than building closer to their demographic.  This tells me that the location is a big selling point.

[guido911]

What if the the number 4 or the view from that spot or anything else having to do with it was offensive to any of the families?  Would you support them and say 4 blocks was too close?

Which families, the 9/11 or Muslim or both. Doesn't matter to me if people object, it's their right to do so. Personally, I think the proximity to Ground Zero argument would be harder to make given the forty year existence of that mosque.

I only posted the four block issue to point out that there is already a mosque near Ground Zero and no one up there seems upset about that one. Indeed, there are no cries of intolerance by Muslim/pro-mosque group against those xenophobic and bigoted folks with regards to the Masjid Manhattan.  

[Townsend]

revealing that 68% of Americans oppose the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- including 54% of Democrats, 45% of liberals, 82 percent of Republicans disapprove. Meanwhile, 70 percent of independents said they are against the proposal.

I wonder how many or the 68%, when asked about the "ground zero mosque", actually know it's not a mosque and that it's not going to be built on ground zero?

[Conan71]

I wonder how many or the 68%, when asked about the "ground zero mosque", actually know it's not a mosque and that it's not going to be built on ground zero?

No idea, though it is being used as a mosque now.

[Townsend]

No idea, though it is being used as a mosque now.

Noted from above entries.

My point is if you ask someone if they favor a mosque built on the same ground as the twin towers, you'll hear a "no".  That is most likely what they're hearing.

[Gaspar]

No idea, though it is being used as a mosque now.

It will continue to be used as a mosque.  "Community Center" is simply a PC term.  

[Townsend]

Which families, the 9/11 or Muslim or both. Doesn't matter to me if people object, it's their right to do so. Personally, I think the proximity to Ground Zero argument would be harder to make given the forty year existence of that mosque.

I only posted the four block issue to point out that there is already a mosque near Ground Zero and no one up there seems upset about that one. Indeed, there are no cries of intolerance by Muslim/pro-mosque group against those xenophobic and bigoted folks with regards to the Masjid Manhattan.  

Well then if you've been stating this all along I've misunderstood your stance.

[Townsend]

It will continue to be used as a mosque.  "Community Center" is simply a PC term.  

Community Center means mosque?

[nathanm]

What's really interesting is that folks who live in Manhattan are +10 in favor of the mosque. You know, the people whose borough it's actually being built in. The greatest resistance comes from those in Staten Island, who were apparently already protesting a mosque being built there.

Basically, there's not even a majoritarian argument to be made here, if you look at the poll that was conducted...

Also, apparently there's a Y there in NYC that holds a lot of prayer events for Jews. Supposedly nobody calls that a synagogue. Why the double standard?

[custosnox]

That still didn't answer my question as to how this is structure is a goodwill gesture when most people, ignorant or not of real or percieved issues are against it.  There's no doubt there's a lot of misinformation and misplaced fear on the part of some opponents but there's also historical precident throughout Islam for people to cast a wary eye in the direction of this center.  

I can say that since we started the debate on here, I've learned more about Imam Faisal and the Cordoba Initiative and I'd like to believe there are the best of intentions with this.  If what I'm led to believe is correct, then moving the location should be less about capitulation to the Cordoba folks than truly showing the good will this is supposed to stand for.  I think it's telling when adherents to Islam are saying that it would be wise to put this elsewhere if they want to build a bridge. To someone who lost their spouse on 9/11, they might have a serious distaste for all Islam even though it's only a small handful of Muslims who were involved in this atrocity.  I'm reading things though that almost make Muslims sound like the victims of 9/11 not the citizens of the United States.

At this point it comes down to how far do the Muslims have to go to show they are trying to have goodwill?  There are many who wouldn't be happy until they were back in Islamic nations, and even then it would be questionable.  So, to show that they have nothing but goodwill, should they pack up and head back to whatever country they originated from, leaving no trace of their religion?  Them building a community center in a place that it is needed, and presenting themselves as wanting to show otheres that they are a peaceful religion and then those they are trying to make peace with saying it is offensive for them to build there and they should move it is the equivalant of holding out an olive branch and having it slapped down because it's not gold plated.  

And yes, in a since, all of Islam was a victim of 9/11, and no, this does not diminish the tragedy America suffered.  It is in addition to the tragedy that because a few radical extremists did this in the name of the Muslim religion that the entire religion is now viewed as war mongering terrorists who are intent on removing the infadels from the face of the planet.  It's akin to painting all catholics as pedophiles because of a few priests actions.  A pale comparison, but one none the less.

As far as everyone having to pray to Allah, not at all.  I'm simply trying to figure out where the rights or desires of a minority are more important than those of a majority and using the example of illegal immigration as a little absurdity to put an exclaimation point on this.  Even prior to this hitting the national spotlight in a big way, more than 1/2 of NYC area residents were against it.  We also know there are Democrats, Independents, women, and Muslims against this.  Hardly rank and file Fox watchers.

It's still comparing apples to oranges.  Illegal immagrants have no constitutional right to be here illegally.  Religions do have the constitutional right to worshiping without interferance from the government.  

As far as the numbers of who opposed it, yes there were some of every group that opposed it, and you will find that no matter what the issue is.  However, the numbers were skewed by the large amounts of conservatives who opposed it.

    AGE IN YRS.......    NoColl Coll   POL PHIL.........
                            18-34  35-54  55+    Degree Degree Lib    Mod    Con
Foster understanding   51%    42%    36%    34%    48%    63%    41%    17%
Insult to families         36     42     46     44     40     23     42     68
BOTH(VOL)                 2      2      3      3      2      3      2      2
NEITHER(VOL)             4      5      6      6      5      5      6      4
DK/NA                        6      9     10     13      5      6      9      9

[Gaspar]

Noted from above entries.

My point is if you ask someone if they favor a mosque built on the same ground as the twin towers, you'll hear a "no".  That is most likely what they're hearing.

Townsend, you are correct perception IS everything.  It may be a "community center" but hundreds are worshiping in it now, and will continue to worship there even if they call it a "Dry Cleaners."

I think that people do understand where it is and what it is, and yes, both sides of the argument are trying to market it to their political advantage.

No matter how you correctly or incorrectly define it, it is now established as a symbol with meaning and strong emotion on both sides.

Lets look at it from the Imam's perspective. . .(a little role-play)
I have every right to build on this spot.  I own it. I am already using this building for worship and have been for years even though the roof leaks from a gaping hole caused by the landing gear of American Flight 11.  Hundreds of my parishioners travel from near by residential areas to prey in this damaged structure.  I already have a congregation here.

If peace was my only motive, I would certainly entertain other possible locations because my goal is to build a place of joy and worship. There is however a reason that people want to worship here.  I understand that by building my "community center" here, I present myself, my building, and my congregation as an international symbol, and I recognize some advantage to that.

[custosnox]

Also something to note, the vast majority that opposed it (in the pre-media craze poll), already had a pre-existing bias against Islam/Muslims as per their response to Question 21:

21. Would you say you have a generally favorable or unfavorable opinion of Islam, the Muslim religion?