The New Mosque

[Townsend]

Also something to note, the vast majority that opposed it (in the pre-media craze poll), already had a pre-existing bias against Islam/Muslims as per their response to Question 21:

21. Would you say you have a generally favorable or unfavorable opinion of Islam, the Muslim religion?

The way that question was asked, they thought they had to explain that Islam was the Muslim religion.  IOW, they were prepared for those who know or knew little of the faith to answer.

[custosnox]

The way that question was asked, they thought they had to explain that Islam was the Muslim religion.  IOW, they were prepared for those who know or knew little of the faith to answer.

Dispite the increased levels of media attention of Islam, it's surprising how many don't really understand that.

[nathanm]

More evidence that the furor over mosques has nothing to do whatsoever with ground zero:

"Wouldn't you agree that every terrorist, past and present, has come out of a mosque?" asked one woman who stood up Wednesday night during a civic association meeting on Staten Island to address representatives of a group that wants to convert a Roman Catholic convent into a mosque in the Midland Beach neighborhood.

"No," began Ayman Hammous, president of the Staten Island branch of the group, the Muslim American Society — though the rest of his answer was drowned out by catcalls and boos from among the 400 people who packed the gymnasium of a community center.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/11/nyregion/11mosque.html?_r=2

The man leading the fight against the mosque is a stocky 44-year-old correctional officer named Kevin Fisher. After he heard about the proposal, he voiced his opposition with an op-ed in the town's alternative weekly.

Fisher spent his formative years in Buffalo, where a homegrown terrorist cell of Yemeni Americans was uncovered in 2002. Its presence in a place so familiar haunts Fisher to this day, he said. He is well aware that clerics at U.S. mosques have been accused of espousing radical views in the years before and after Sept. 11.

And he pointed out that one of the Murfreesboro mosque's board members was suspended after the discovery of a MySpace page where he had posted Arabic poetry and a photo of the founder of the Islamic militant group Hamas. Leaders of the mosque said their internal investigation showed no wrongdoing, and they are cooperating with federal authorities looking into the matter.

"So many things about Islam are disconcerting," Fisher said. "As they get bigger, there will be concerns about the ideology, what they preach and what they believe."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/22/AR2010082202895_3.html

In Temecula, Calif., opponents brought dogs to protest a proposed 25,000-square-foot mosque that would sit on four acres next to a Baptist church. Opponents worry it will turn the town into haven for Islamic extremists, but mosque leaders say they are peaceful and just need more room to serve members.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100808/ap_on_re_us/us_mosque_opposition

[Conan71]

Also something to note, the vast majority that opposed it (in the pre-media craze poll), already had a pre-existing bias against Islam/Muslims as per their response to Question 21:

21. Would you say you have a generally favorable or unfavorable opinion of Islam, the Muslim religion?

something about a couple of buildings collapsing in lower Manhattan might have affected their views.

[Hoss]

something about a couple of buildings collapsing in lower Manhattan might have affected their views.

Hmm...I notice churches go up near NW 5th and Harvey in OKC with no protest...

[heironymouspasparagus]

So according to Conan, Baptists should be driven or removed from downtown Oklahoma City because of what little Timmy did!!

Something about the Federal building collapsing in downtown OKC affected my views, too.  (Just not in a xenophobic, bigoted, anti-Baptist way....)

[Conan71]

I'm not aware of any religious affiliation of McVeigh or Nichols nor was the Murrah building bombed in the name of any particular religion. I think we all know McVeigh was outraged at the apparent violations of the first and second amendment rights of the Branch Davidians.

The point I was trying to make before you perverted it was the incidents on 9/11 did nothing to improve the image of Islam to Americans.

As far as how close to Ground Zero is acceptable, how about as close as they will allow a Christian church to Mecca. Fair?

[heironymouspasparagus]

McVeigh claimed himself Baptist. 

So, with the last comment, the message is that we should be just like the Saudi's.  Yeah,...that's just the kind of country I want to live in.  Another crazed, tin-horn dictator controlled theocracy.  But that's pretty much the entire RWRE mantra.  We should do it just like they do...we'll allow mosques here when they allow Christian church in Mecca. 


And in an unrelated, but pertinent vein - Liz Cheney was on Fox tonight lamenting and lambasting the comments by some Imam (New York one I think) that we had caused more death and destruction of men, women and children in Iraq than Al Qaeda.  She was greatly outraged by the truth, as would be expected from Fox channel.

Umbrage, indignation and outrage at truth and facts.  Well, I guess if bluster, misdirection and distortion is all ya got, ya go with what ya got, huh?

[Hoss]

I'm not aware of any religious affiliation of McVeigh or Nichols nor was the Murrah building bombed in the name of any particular religion. I think we all know McVeigh was outraged at the apparent violations of the first and second amendment rights of the Branch Davidians.

The point I was trying to make before you perverted it was the incidents on 9/11 did nothing to improve the image of Islam to Americans.

As far as how close to Ground Zero is acceptable, how about as close as they will allow a Christian church to Mecca. Fair?

Apples and oranges Colin and you know it.  Saudi Arabia isn't the US and vice versa.  We actually give a smile about the rights of the citizen and hold our constitution sacred.  Well, most of us.

When you start saying stuff like that, let's not forget why our forefathers left the British Isles.  Wasn't it partially because of religious persecution?  So, does that mean only SOME of us that worship a Judeo-Christian God are worthy of the freedom to worship in our chosen religion?

[Hoss]

McVeigh claimed himself Baptist.  

So, with the last comment, the message is that we should be just like the Saudi's.  Yeah,...that's just the kind of country I want to live in.  Another crazed, tin-horn dictator controlled theocracy.  But that's pretty much the entire RWRE mantra.  We should do it just like they do...we'll allow mosques here when they allow Christian church in Mecca.  


And in an unrelated, but pertinent vein - Liz Cheney was on Fox tonight lamenting and lambasting the comments by some Imam (New York one I think) that we had caused more death and destruction of men, women and children in Iraq than Al Qaeda.  She was greatly outraged by the truth, as would be expected from Fox channel.

Umbrage, indignation and outrage at truth and facts.  Well, I guess if bluster, misdirection and distortion is all ya got, ya go with what ya got, huh?

And it wasn't just that Tim claimed himself as Baptist.  He was avenging the attack on the Waco compound.  Wasn't that a religious extremist cult?  You remember how quick the government was to point the finger at the Muslim community in the hours after the Federal Building bombing?

[cannon_fodder]

Conan:

I don't thinkn the muslims in lower manhatten that want to have a community center/mosque or even the guy funding it/leading the congregation have the power to allow churches in mecca. 

"You can build a catholic church in tulsa when I can built a baptist church in the vatican. " damn, I lost the popes number.

It only serves to point out that we are holding the actions of everyone with the same religion against individuals. 

[Cats Cats Cats]

As far as how close to Ground Zero is acceptable, how about as close as they will allow a Christian church to Mecca. Fair?

Ground zero isn't a religious shrine to be used to justify anything we want to do.

[Cats Cats Cats]

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-august-19-2010/moment-of-zen---charlton-heston-s-nra-speech

The daily show had a good NRA speech.  See unlike building a mosque 9 years after a tragic event.  The NRA was having their gun rally 10 days after columbine.

[Conan71]

Ground zero isn't a religious shrine to be used to justify anything we want to do.

You are aware that unidentified human remains from this tragedy will be permanently interred at the Ground Zero Memorial when it is completed, yes?  Burial grounds are considered sacred in most every society and religion.  Sites of previous attacks on the United States are considered sacred by many including the Murrah memorial and Pearl Harbor.

Instead of seeking to understand why it is people are against this center, you guys can't seem to fathom why everyone else doesn't think like you do.  There's plenty of reasons people don't like it, rational or not and they have been explained.  Don't expect everyone else to become educated on Islam and accept it and don't accept Islam on face value of being a peaceful religion of coexistence.

Unfortunately, most Americans knowledge of Islam is that 19 Muslims commandeered civilian aircraft on 9/11/01 and slaughtered over 3000 Americans and we've been fighting Muslims overseas ever since.  Or they've heard about slaughtering infidels, mistreatment of women, and that the entire world must be converted.

Who is to say it's up to America to extend the olive branch?  The only thing which would even come close to pacifying the Arab and Muslim world entirely would be to sever all ties with Israel and demand the Israelis abandon their homeland.

I don't necessarily agree with everything which has been brought up against this  mosque or community center, but I believe when there is an issue which is so devisive, it's perhaps best to simply back away and look to construct this somewhere else.  The purpose and location of the center may all be with the greatest intentions, but to fundamentalist nut-jobs who believe Muslims are infiltrating our country and trying to destroy it, this building could become a target.  Certainly there has been some inflamitory rhetooric used to try and sway opinion like "Ground Zero Mosque" and calling Imam Rauf a "radical cleric".  Is that fair? No, not when the facts are examined, but it's what the average person percieves.  I see this as being a target of vandalism and possibly domestic terrorism in the future, what kind of message will that send to the Muslim world?

It's simple, move it and take it elsewhere.  That's the only way this issue is going to go away peacefully.  We ARE all about peae, aren't we?

[nathanm]

You are aware that unidentified human remains from this tragedy will be permanently interred at the Ground Zero Memorial when it is completed, yes?  Burial grounds are considered sacred in most every society and religion.  Sites of previous attacks on the United States are considered sacred by many including the Murrah memorial and Pearl Harbor.

Odd then that there are Shinto shrines near Pearl Harbor (or so I've read, I haven't personally verified that information).

Also odd that some folks in Tennessee that I posted about earlier decided to make a big stink about a Muslim cemetery a few years back, if intended burial grounds are so sacred.

Besides, Manhattanites favor the community center.

I hear what you're saying, I just think it doesn't make sense. It has nothing to do with extending an olive branch, it has to do with standing up for the principle of religious freedom. It has to do with clearly showing that we don't consider all Muslims to be on par with the hijackers. We're better than this BS. Building it despite the opposition shows one of the greatest things about our nation, that your rights will be protected even when it and/or you are is unpopular. That we're better than mob rule.

I also don't buy the argument that it should be built elsewhere because it will be a target for terrorism in the future. It doesn't matter where it's built; nutjobs who listen to people Pamela Geller will protest a mosque anywhere. It's happening all across the country. It's happening in Staten Island, FFS. There is nowhere that will make these people happy. There have already been mosque bombings. There have already been mosques vandalized. All far from ground zero. It's just a convenient excuse for them to get their hate on.

It makes no more sense than outlawing homosexuality or interracial marriage (or gay marriage, for that matter) because some people are homophobes or racists and kill gays or burn crosses on people's lawns.