President Obama's Approval Rating On The Economy Is Down

[Conan71]

Way to miss the point.

Do you agree that people without money can't buy things?

Oh lookie! It's "economic modality guy"

[Cats Cats Cats]

One problem Americans face is an ever increasing aspiration for a higher standard of living at static or very slowly inflated pricing on lifestyle items and an ever-increasing list of jobs Americans don't want to do anymore.  We, as consumers and workers helped create this mess: "we want cheap durable goods, and oh yeah, we don't want to have to manufacture them either."  

With increased profits, but lower hiring rates, let's hope this translates into re-investing in new equipment and facilities.  That, in-turn would lead to more hiring in related industries.

I do not buy this (don't want to do it).  There are a ton of people looking for manufacturing jobs.  They are moving manufacturing to lower labor countries thats the problem.  Yes, American's don't want to work in a factory for the wages of Mexico.  (which is capitalisms goal, drive wages down, get profits up)

[guido911]

But what if it is?  Conan suggests it might be, and I don't think it's implausible, either.  Where do the jobs come from?  How do we employ more people if business decides it doesn't need to?  It may or may not be business's responsibility to provide employment, but that's where we've decided "quality" employment has to come from, so if not them then who?

This curiosity is what should really scare people in the manufacturing sector.

[guido911]

I do not buy this (don't want to do it).  There are a ton of people looking for manufacturing jobs.  They are moving manufacturing to lower labor countries thats the problem.  Yes, American's don't want to work in a factory for the wages of Mexico.  (which is capitalisms goal, drive wages down, get profits up)

You think the reason why businesses ship their manufacturing out of the country is just because of wages? You don't think regulation, cost of raw materials, unions, market expansion, etc. have anything to do with it?

[Cats Cats Cats]

You think the reason why businesses ship their manufacturing out of the country is just because of wages? You don't think regulation, cost of raw materials, unions, market expansion, etc. have anything to do with it?

In some instances, so no.  Not ALL businesses move because of wages and not all do it because of regulation, unions, market expansion.  But I bet unions are a big part.

[we vs us]

In some instances, so no.  Not ALL businesses move because of wages and not all do it because of regulation, unions, market expansion.  But I bet unions are a big part.

Unions  = wage protection.  I know on this board they get tarred as being the antichrist, but they serve a function in advanced capitalism, which is to push back against unfettered lowering of wages.  It's a necessary pressure, IMO, because otherwise fungible workers (the easily replaced, low-skilled ones) have no leverage over the system, which they should have.  They shouldn't control the system or hold it hostage, but unions ensure that they have a seat at the negotiating table. 

A sure sign of the success of unions is that many of the older and more established ones have found ways to launch their members into the middle class, not just through wage negotiation but through pensions, pooled health care, college loans, housing credits, etc. for members.  This is a crucial thing for the growth of our society, and in the 50's-60's (a time when the US did most of its strong middle class growth) unions were also expanding and maturing.

Also: that's a lot of nanny-statin' transferred away from the state and onto a semi-private organization.  Why you anti-government folks don't support things like unions is beyond me . . . unless you're hostile to the entire idea of social support networks in general.

Sorry Trog, didn't mean to derail your comment.

[Conan71]

A sure sign of the success of unions is that many of the older and more established ones have found ways to launch their members into the middle class, not just through wage negotiation but through pensions, pooled health care, college loans, housing credits, etc. for members.  This is a crucial thing for the growth of our society, and in the 50's-60's (a time when the US did most of its strong middle class growth) unions were also expanding and maturing.

The costs of which pretty much cratered the "old" GM and Chrysler.  The unions nearly brought down the U.S. auto industry and now they are a major shareholder in it...that's nuts.

[we vs us]

This curiosity is what should really scare people in the manufacturing sector.

It should scare us all.  It means we either some how force-create the jobs or we announce that we're satisfied with permanent 10% unemployment and buffer up our welfare networks. I'm pretty sure we will be very unhappy with the long term effects of a permanently underemployed workforce.

[Conan71]

It should scare us all.  It means we either some how force-create the jobs or we announce that we're satisfied with permanent 10% unemployment and buffer up our welfare networks. I'm pretty sure we will be very unhappy with the long term effects of a permanently underemployed workforce.

And if that is the solution, then the government needs to tie unemployment or welfare benefits to some sort of job performance the government can use.  We've talked about that before and seems like a solution everyone is okay with.

God only knows how many jobs were being kept afloat by borrowing and for how long that went on.  For certain, we know not as much credit is being used for expenditures these days.

[guido911]

It should scare us all.  It means we either some how force-create the jobs or we announce that we're satisfied with permanent 10% unemployment and buffer up our welfare networks. I'm pretty sure we will be very unhappy with the long term effects of a permanently underemployed workforce.

I am sincerely curious, how do you "force-create" jobs?

[nathanm]

You think the reason why businesses ship their manufacturing out of the country is just because of wages? You don't think regulation, cost of raw materials, unions, market expansion, etc. have anything to do with it?

The cost of raw materials is the same anywhere. It's a global market.

There is a difference in regulation, but that regulation is what differentiates us from China. I guess if you'd rather we let manufacturers pollute indiscriminately, that's one way to do it.

The main difference is wages, though. Would you rather pay someone 50 cents an hour or 20 dollars an hour? Even when you have to throw away half of the widgets the factory made due to poor quality control, you still come out ahead. Pollution control technology, while expensive in absolute terms, doesn't add much per unit cost for most manufacturers. If the main issue wasn't labor, you wouldn't see the constant trickle down of factories from one developing country to the next. As soon as the labor supply becomes at all constrained and wages are forced up, they pack up and move elsewhere. Exploitation of labor is the dark underbelly of free trade.

As energy becomes more expensive, the cost of shipping will go through the roof and more manufacturing will be done close to demand, rather than halfway around the world.

[we vs us]

I am sincerely curious, how do you "force-create" jobs?

Well, if the private sector won't voluntarily create them, then the government has to. When I said "force" I meant "artificially."

I know you're on a constant lookout for us dangerous socialists and all the iffy measures we might take to "force" private industry to do something it might prefer not to do.  Please be assured I don't think we can force businesses to hire.  It only means government has to do what business can't or won't.

[Conan71]

Well, if the private sector won't voluntarily create them, then the government has to. When I said "force" I meant "artificially."

I know you're on a constant lookout for us dangerous socialists and all the iffy measures we might take to "force" private industry to do something it might prefer not to do.  Please be assured I don't think we can force businesses to hire.  It only means government has to do what business can't or won't.

That's rather what I was hinting at.  Instead of paying for people to search for jobs (U/E benefits) or procreate (welfare), the government could pay people for temporary jobs and pay for productivity instead of being idle.  They could help shore up manpower shortages caused by state and local budget constraints in such a scenario.

[Conan71]

The cost of raw materials is the same anywhere. It's a global market.

Absolutely untrue.  Raw materials mined or produced 1/2 a world away will cost more than those produced and supplied locally.  You must be confusing commodities with raw materials.  Even commodities will have fluctuations in cost from country to country regardless what they are trading for on the Merc.

[nathanm]

Absolutely untrue.  Raw materials mined or produced 1/2 a world away will cost more than those produced and supplied locally.  You must be confusing commodities with raw materials.  Even commodities will have fluctuations in cost from country to country regardless what they are trading for on the Merc.

Sure, there are transportation costs involved, but the price of the materials themselves is essentially the same, for the same quality. It's a global market out there, and as has been proven by the offshoring of manufacturing all the way across the Pacific, any extra cost involved in transporting things around is only a small part of the cost of the finished good, or at least is when compared to the cost of US labor on a labor-hour basis. (That's not an entirely fair comparison, as I mentioned earlier, as factories here tend to be more automated, so use less labor to do the same work)

You really think commodities traders won't take arbitrage profits when prices are vastly different between countries? If the price difference isn't meaningful enough for them to make the trade and take the profit, it's not significant enough to make a big difference to the manufacturers, either.

Until transportation costs increase significantly, that's just the way it's going to be.