"Lives Touched"

[Conan71]

Boy, that's a thread-ender if I ever saw one!

[we vs us]

Typical Sgrizz.  Shutting down debate with a well placed .gif.

Got anything for mosques?

[Conan71]

Typical Sgrizz.  Shutting down debate with a well placed .gif.

Got anything for mosques?

[we vs us]

That one's not gonna shut down debate.

[Gaspar]

Well, you know . . .

What is making you so mad.  There was nothing Mis-quoted here.  My comment was not on the program, or on the money spent, or on weather creating more debt is good for eliminating debt (whatever).

My comment was on the birth of a new statistic.  A statistic that owes it's very existence on failure.  Had the Stimulus actually created real jobs, there would be no need for such an outrageously constructed statistic.

Further more, we have seen this term "Lives Touched" used in several of the President's own speeches, dating back to the campaign.  So we know who the father is.

Now.  Focus your outrage.  We will hear more of this term.  I promise.

[swake]

What is making you so mad.  There was nothing Mis-quoted here.  My comment was not on the program, or on the money spent, or on weather creating more debt is good for eliminating debt (whatever).

My comment was on the birth of a new statistic.  A statistic that owes it's very existence on failure.  Had the Stimulus actually created real jobs, there would be no need for such an outrageously constructed statistic.

Further more, we have seen this term "Lives Touched" used in several of the President's own speeches, dating back to the campaign.  So we know who the father is.

Now.  Focus your outrage.  We will hear more of this term.  I promise.

My outrage? You are the outrage junkie. You are the one that claimed each job "cost us $194,213 per job." and "I owe the government an extra $40,000 because of it."

All I did was prove that you are full of crap with your claims, again.

Say, when are you scheduled to predict your next market melt down, can I get some notice so I can play against you? You're the friggin' anti-Nostradamus of economic facts and predictions.

[sgrizzle]

Typical Sgrizz.  Shutting down debate with a well placed .gif.

Got anything for mosques?

[Gaspar]

My outrage? You are the outrage junkie. You are the one that claimed each job "cost us $194,213 per job." and "I owe the government an extra $40,000 because of it."

. . .and that is true.

All I did was prove that you are full of crap with your claims, again.

Say, when are you scheduled to predict your next market melt down, can I get some notice so I can play against you? You're the friggin' anti-Nostradamus of economic facts and predictions.

. . .I am not a professional, but I expect it to fall under 8,000.  It's not falling as fast as I anticipated and that is good.

You are right.  I am outraged, but my outrage is focused on the things that I think matter.  Apparently we disagree on what matters.  You're outrage is simply based (as typical) on any comment deemed as blasphemy against President Obama.  In your eyes I am considered a heroic, for any disagreement I may have against the administration.  I have both complemented President Obama and criticized him.   I find myself far more critical than complementary.

[swake]

. . .and that is true.
. . .I am not a professional, but I expect it to fall under 8,000.  It's not falling as fast as I anticipated and that is good.

You are right.  I am outraged, but my outrage is focused on the things that I think matter.  Apparently we disagree on what matters.  You're outrage is simply based (as typical) on any comment deemed as blasphemy against President Obama.  In your eyes I am considered a heroic, for any disagreement I may have against the administration.  I have both complemented President Obama and criticized him.   I find myself far more critical than complementary.

Will you admit that the government program that you were outraged about, the one that your figure of $194,213 was derived from, that this actual report states that this specific program will not cost tax payers $194,213 per job and will in fact save taxpayers two billion dollars.

This isn't about Obama, it's about honesty. Are you willing to be honest here? You were wrong, really wrong. Can you admit it?

[we vs us]

www.plateauremediation.hanford.gov/.../arra_reporting_instructions_r3.doc

This is the doc Gassy's "lives touched" comes from.  From the doc:

"Total Head-count (lives-touched):  This is a cumulative total that includes contractor employees, subcontractor employees, and vendor employees, reflecting the total number of people (including temporary workers and part-time workers) that have been compensated for work under the Recovery Act funding for anytime during the period of performance.

Job Types: Management, Technical. Business, Admin/Clerical and Trade/Craft – Examples include:
1.   Management:  Managers, Supervisors, Executives
2.   Technical: Engineers, Scientists, Technicians
3.   Business: Accountants, Architects, Analysts, Procurement, Communications, Human Resources, Legal, Planners, Information Technology
4.   Admin/Clerical: Secretaries, Administrative, Clerks
5.   Trade/Craft: Carpenters, Electricians, Painters, Plumbers, Laborers, Drivers"

Further,

"ARRA Headcount Reporting

Additional Clarification
   ARRA Headcount reporting shall be inclusive of any and all employees who have performed work on one or more ARRA Funded contract(s) and or releases. This includes temporary workers and part-time workers that have been compensated for work performed under the ARRA Funded Contracts.
   Headcount reporting shall identify each employee only once within one of the specified categories; Manager, Administrative, Business, Technical, Non-Union, or Union.  Choose the category that best represents the employee's role & position overall.

Example:   John Doe works 20 hours on contract 12346 Release 3.  The headcount is 1 and the hours noted are 20 on contract 12346 Release 3."

So, "lives touched" is a way to count all the man hours associated with ARRA work.  I admit, it's a hamfisted term.  The metric, however, is legit.

[Gaspar]

www.plateauremediation.hanford.gov/.../arra_reporting_instructions_r3.doc

This is the doc Gassy's "lives touched" comes from.  From the doc:

"Total Head-count (lives-touched):  This is a cumulative total that includes contractor employees, subcontractor employees, and vendor employees, reflecting the total number of people (including temporary workers and part-time workers) that have been compensated for work under the Recovery Act funding for anytime during the period of performance.

Job Types: Management, Technical. Business, Admin/Clerical and Trade/Craft – Examples include:
1.   Management:  Managers, Supervisors, Executives
2.   Technical: Engineers, Scientists, Technicians
3.   Business: Accountants, Architects, Analysts, Procurement, Communications, Human Resources, Legal, Planners, Information Technology
4.   Admin/Clerical: Secretaries, Administrative, Clerks
5.   Trade/Craft: Carpenters, Electricians, Painters, Plumbers, Laborers, Drivers"

Further,

"ARRA Headcount Reporting

Additional Clarification
   ARRA Headcount reporting shall be inclusive of any and all employees who have performed work on one or more ARRA Funded contract(s) and or releases. This includes temporary workers and part-time workers that have been compensated for work performed under the ARRA Funded Contracts.
   Headcount reporting shall identify each employee only once within one of the specified categories; Manager, Administrative, Business, Technical, Non-Union, or Union.  Choose the category that best represents the employee’s role & position overall.

Example:   John Doe works 20 hours on contract 12346 Release 3.  The headcount is 1 and the hours noted are 20 on contract 12346 Release 3."

So, "lives touched" is a way to count all the man hours associated with ARRA work.  I admit, it's a hamfisted term.  The metric, however, is legit.

Correct!  I, again, am not debating WHAT it is.  I am debating how it is being used.  It WILL be the new political term used to tout the stimulus.  Furthermore, as it states it is not a "Live" statistic.  This means that if you worked for 1 hour on a job and then were laid off, you are still counted as a positive statistic equal to the guy that worked 8,760 hours on the project.

It is more than "hamfisted," it is ridiculous.

[swake]

Will you admit that the government program that you were outraged about, the one that your figure of $194,213 was derived from, that this actual report states that this specific program will not cost tax payers $194,213 per job and will in fact save taxpayers two billion dollars.

This isn't about Obama, it's about honesty. Are you willing to be honest here? You were wrong, really wrong. Can you admit it?

Guess not.

[Gaspar]

Guess not.

Sure, this was the cost for the jobs created by the DOD projects.

Other departments have different costs associated, and it varies from state to state.  Most reports I've seen are in excess of $100,000 and few are permanent positions. 

Some are worse than others such as ODOT's projects on Interstate 35.  They created/saved 72 jobs at a cost of 1.04 million per job.  According to federal data, several ODOT projects had little direct effect on employment. Some states created jobs for a bargain, TN reports that the 1,200 transportation jobs created/saved cost $161,500 each.

We can argue about what the cost of jobs actually is, but that's not the subject of this post, and I refuse to be led away from the hilarity of how this administration is attempting to re-sell a dead horse.

[nathanm]

Has nobody noticed that it's only the DoE using this term and not the rest of the administration? Go look at recovery.gov, where it states "recovery funded jobs."

Also, taking the entire cost of a contract, including building materials, equipment rental, and whatever else and dividing it by the number of jobs paid for by the contract is a fundamentally dishonest way of calculating the cost of the jobs themselves. Only the labor cost should be counted. Unless they're digging holes and filling them back in..although that wouldn't have much material cost.

[Gaspar]

Has nobody noticed that it's only the DoE using this term and not the rest of the administration? Go look at recovery.gov, where it states "recovery funded jobs."

Also, taking the entire cost of a contract, including building materials, equipment rental, and whatever else and dividing it by the number of jobs paid for by the contract is a fundamentally dishonest way of calculating the cost of the jobs themselves. Only the labor cost should be counted. Unless they're digging holes and filling them back in..although that wouldn't have much material cost.

In my previous position we designed ADA sidewalk ramps for ARRA projects at intersections hundreds of miles from civilization out in the NW OK.  No plans for any sidewalks, just the ramps.  We got a kick out of it, but it paid. . .Not enough to keep the company healthy, but a little.  Amazing how many pages of CAD are necessary to design a concrete ramp at an intersection.