Illegal Immigration on the Decline

[nathanm]

How do people wind up with such lazy logic?  Did you learn this in college?

What specifically do you disagree with?

[Conan71]

Let's start with how our laws make drug mules break the law and go from there.

"the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally"

[nathanm]

Let's start with how our laws make drug mules break the law and go from there.

"the drug mules, which are a byproduct of our own drug laws and demand, and could be handled much better by relaxing requirements to come here legally"

OK. Our draconian drug laws are what creates the profit motive for them to do what they do. Keeping it outside the bounds of the law means that when business deals go bad their only recourse is violence. If you take the massive profits out of the equation, there would be no incentive for them to continue doing what they do.

We claim to be capitalist, but fail to see how capitalism is exactly what's driving the drug trade. Trying to work against that is like trying to empty the ocean with a bucket.

If we are going to insist on keeping those incentives in place, relaxing legal immigration requirements and increasing penalties for illegal crossing would drive the otherwise law-abiding folks to the legal crossings, making it much harder for the drug mules to slip across the border in a crowd of "normal" illegal border crossers. A large part of our enforcement issue is just that there's so damn many people coming across we can't catch them all.

Once you know that all the people who aren't a real problem are crossing at the checkpoints, you know that all the people not doing so are those who we have a very strong self interest in preventing from crossing. Why bother crossing illegally if you can get in legally?

[heironymouspasparagus]

Why not just answer the question, Conan.  What are they stealing from you?

A job?  Go to http://www.takeourjobs.org/

They will train you and put you to work.

We invited them!  I know it is tough for some to remember the reality with all the Murdochian spew going around, but it is still true.  In spite of the RWRE lies!

[guido911]

"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims_2.html

[we vs us]

"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).

http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims_2.html

Then why post it? 


"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."

Prove it.

[Townsend]

Then why post it? 


"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."

Prove it.

He doesn't have to.  They're not like him...so obviously they are violent criminals.

[guido911]

Then why post it? 


"(oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?)."

Prove it.

I see the ban-aid brigade is out in full force, covering your wounded buddies. Seriously, do you really want to get into a debate as to violent crimes committed by illegal immigrants? If so, once I get to my vaca destination, I will give you some. In the meantime, do yourself a favor and google "illegal immigration violent crime" and educate yourself. You can start with this one, which incidentally points out the obvious that most illegal immigrants are not violent criminals:

Nevertheless, it is also fact that a disproportionately high percentage of illegal aliens are criminals and sexual predators. That is part of the dark side of illegal immigration and when we simply allow the "good' in we get the "bad" along with them. Ignoring the fact that just being an illegal alien already makes one a criminal, the question is, how much really "bad" is acceptable and what price are we willing to pay in terms of the collateral damage being inflicted by simply allowing all of them in?

This section will concentrate on violent crimes committed by illegal aliens against people. The following section will detail the SEXUAL CRIME being committed by illegal aliens. While most sexual crime is violent as well, there is just too much horrific crime being committed by illegal aliens to cover it all in one section. In any case, I do not mean to minimize the tremendous devastation upon Americans and society in general from a significant number of additional property and other crimes being committed by illegal aliens.

As an example of a rapidly growing crime that has a high illegal alien participation, causing many months if not years of misery for the victim, see the GAO's report IDENTITY FRAUD – Prevalence and Links to Illegal Alien Activity, as well as Identity Theft is a Serious Immigration Issue and Illegal Aliens Steal Identities To Get American Jobs.

If you happened to be the victim of identity theft by an illegal alien you probably don't think it was a "victimless" crime. If you haven't been the victim of ID theft but would like to know what the fuss is all about, see: 10-year-old girl victim of ID theft, Two women, one ID and plenty of problems, As victim of identity theft, I wish several things would happen, and Illicit Use of Social Security Information Rises. Also note Faye Bowers' article in the Christian Science Monitor, An Illegal Immigration Link to Identity Theft, to see how easy and cheap it is to get the documents stealing YOUR identification.

Additionally, there is a plethora of other criminal activities with a high illegal alien participation, including such crimes involving cocaine, methamphetamine, home invasion, auto insurance fraud, life insurance fraud, food stamp fraud, mortgage fraud, auto theft, drug trafficking, prostitution, more prostitution, and, of course, counterfeiting documents.

http://www.usillegalaliens.com/impacts_of_illegal_immigration_crime.html

Now, that's two reference sites I have provided, care to counter or just whine?

[Townsend]

covering your wounded buddies.

Ever wonder what that's like?  To have buddies?  Or do you just sit there in the basement weeping?

The act gets old.

[nathanm]

"Stealing" my tax dollars to educate their children, provide medical care, and house their rear ends with three hots and a cot while they are in jail for gosh knows what reason. Now, I cannot verify the veracity of this website, but I think most will get the picture (oh, and for Townsend's benefit, my point is that some/many illegal aliens commit violent crime in America; do you get that?).

Um, you do realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes, right? They are almost 100% certain to pay for their kid's school the same as anyone who owns or rents a place to live or who buys anything. They aren't eligible for public assistance, so they aren't costing you anything there. They often pay income and payroll tax, yet will never be eligible for social security or medicare and overpay income tax since they can't get a refund, since they made up a social security number.

The only leg you have to stand on is the medical care thing, and personally, I'd rather not have an underclass spreading disease, but that's just me. Moreover, far more of the medical cost issue has to do with people living longer, having more expensive drastic medical interventions and ridiculously expensive new technology than it does with illegal immigrants.

Basically, the vast majority of them provide you with a net tax gain (and would much prefer to be here legally and be sure of paying their fair share), and otherwise don't harm you, yet you grumble for no particular reason. The definition of xenophobia.

Even if I accept that many illegal immigrants are violent criminals, wouldn't reducing the number of illegal crossings by nonviolent people help us police the border better?

[Conan71]

Um, you do realize that illegal immigrants pay taxes, right? They are almost 100% certain to pay for their kid's school the same as anyone who owns or rents a place to live or who buys anything. They aren't eligible for public assistance, so they aren't costing you anything there. They often pay income and payroll tax, yet will never be eligible for social security or medicare and overpay income tax since they can't get a refund, since they made up a social security number.

The only leg you have to stand on is the medical care thing, and personally, I'd rather not have an underclass spreading disease, but that's just me. Moreover, far more of the medical cost issue has to do with people living longer, having more expensive drastic medical interventions and ridiculously expensive new technology than it does with illegal immigrants.

Basically, the vast majority of them provide you with a net tax gain (and would much prefer to be here legally and be sure of paying their fair share), and otherwise don't harm you, yet you grumble for no particular reason. The definition of xenophobia.

Even if I accept that many illegal immigrants are violent criminals, wouldn't reducing the number of illegal crossings by nonviolent people help us police the border better?

Let me aks you this: what would happen to you if you didn't file a state or federal income tax form, or used a fraudulent social security number?

Illegals take as many exemptions as possible on their W-4, they aren't paying near as much withholding as you think.  They know they can't file and get a refund so they take it on the front end. 

Let's start with tax fraud and social security fraud and go from there.

[we vs us]

Consider Arizona itself — whose illegal-immigrant population is believed to be second only to California's. The state's overall crime rate dropped 12% last year; between 2004 and 2008 it plunged 23%. In the metro area of its largest city, Phoenix, violent crime — encompassing murder, rape, assault and robbery — fell by a third during the past decade and by 17% last year. The border city of Nogales, an area rife with illegal immigration and drug trafficking, hasn't logged a single murder in the past two years.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2007474,00.html#ixzz0yV6t7vp4

Good stuff from July 30, 2010.

Also,

According to the nonpartisan Immigration Policy Institute, proponents of the bill "overlook two salient points: Crime rates have already been falling in Arizona for years despite the presence of unauthorized immigrants, and a century's worth of research has demonstrated that immigrants are less likely to commit crimes or be behind bars than the native-born."

http://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-29/justice/arizona.immigration.crime_1_sen-russell-pearce-illegal-immigration-immigration-law?_s=PM:CRIME

This is funny, though:  FOX news says, in an article entitled "Border States Deal With More Illegal Immigrant Crime Than Most, Data Suggest:"

Arizona lawmakers say their new immigration enforcement law will help them fight an illegal immigrant crime wave that is sweeping the state, a claim that is backed by studies and statistics that suggest border states have a disproportionately high number of criminals who are illegal immigrants.

Of course, further down in the piece -- waaaaay far down in the piece -- the writer admits:

But overall, it's hard to say that illegal immigrants have triggered a crime explosion in any of these states, though the recent killing of Arizona rancher Robert Krentz by a suspected illegal immigrant has served as a rallying cry for advocates of tougher enforcement.

FBI statistics show California and Texas had a violent crime average slightly higher than the national average 2008, while Arizona's average was slightly lower.

Jessica Vaughan, a co-author of the Center for Immigration Studies report and policy director at the think tank, said the bottom line is that connections between illegal immigrants and crime are hard to draw.

"We didn't find any evidence to support the idea that either immigrants are more prone to crime or less prone to crime than ... legally resident Americans," she said. "It's very tricky."

[snip]

But for those immigrants who are being caught and convicted, their immigration status itself is often the offense."

[nathanm]

Let's start with tax fraud and social security fraud and go from there.

Even if I accept your claim about their fraudulent exemption claims at face value, how are they committing social security fraud?

Regardless, wouldn't it be better to bring them into the system?

[Conan71]

Even if I accept your claim about their fraudulent exemption claims at face value, how are they committing social security fraud?

Regardless, wouldn't it be better to bring them into the system?

The exemption scam is done regularly, believe me.

Helloooo? Fraudulent social security number, maybe?

Creating a fraudulent SSN is a felony.
Forging a SSN card is a felony.
Entering false information (including a fraudulent SSN) on an I-9 or W-4 is a felony

Want me to continue?

[nathanm]

Creating a fraudulent SSN is a felony.
Forging a SSN card is a felony.
Entering false information (including a fraudulent SSN) on an I-9 or W-4 is a felony

What I meant was "how are they not paying their own way." Obviously it's legally fraud if they make up a social security number, but it's harmless if their withholding is still taken out and they don't accidentally hit someone else's number. The tax is being paid, regardless of what number they put on the form.