State Question 744

[Gaspar]

Our state government needs to properly fund public schools for our children. Period. They have failed to do so and won't unless this bill passes.

I agree they have failed.  They have always failed.  They failed when they spend 1/2 as much per pupil and they are failing to an even grater extent now that they spend twice as much.  If this bill passes there is no mandate for how the money is to be spent.  There is no guidance in this bill.

This is not the bill that will improve our schools. . .In fact the word "Improve" appears neither in the text of the legislation or in the question posed to the voters.  From a PR standpoint, I would at least try to sneak in some phrase that implies the money will be used to "Improve" the quality of education. 

If anything, they should at least re-write it and hint at improving education.  This is not a Liberal vs Conservative thing.  Anyone can see that this bill lacks any reason to pass.

[custosnox]

just an off the wall thought here, but since we can't exaclty punish bad parents, why not reward good parents?  Incentives to parents who attend conferences, have kids that do their homewhere, that have kids that have good grades and so forth, ect.

[RecycleMichael]

  This is not a Liberal vs Conservative thing. 

I completely agree. This question is about what the state of Oklahoma over funds and under funds.

I believe we over fund prisons, highways and universities. I believe we also continue to build monuments in OKC to house more and more state employees.

I want to send a message that Oklahoma school children are important.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Overfund highways??  Interesting idea.  Apparently have not actually ridden on a highway lately.
Plus the $2 billion in debt the turnpike authority has hanging over the roads.  With substandard turnpikes all around.

But they are supporting big oil in the state by slobbering a couple inches of asphalt around from time to time.

As opposed to rebuilding the roads.  Properly.

[Conan71]

just an off the wall thought here, but since we can't exaclty punish bad parents, why not reward good parents?  Incentives to parents who attend conferences, have kids that do their homewhere, that have kids that have good grades and so forth, ect.

There are incentives now: raising productive, bright, and responsible humans is very gartifying and generally costs parents less in love ups down the road.

It's sad we even need to think of having to put artificial incentives out there as a motivator, but appreciate your point. What sort of incentives do you have in mind?

[RecycleMichael]

You are confusing road building with funding. ODOT last year spent over $38 million in administration costs, and $82 million in engineering and only $65 million in operations. Their budget for last year was $1.8 billion and Obama dollars was another $462 million last year. Look at what we got for the $2.3 billion. Crappy roads.

Department of Corrections has a budget $477 million ($50 per month for a family of four). Any wonder why we are fifth in the nation in prisoners per capita (and first in female incarceration)?

I believe we could find some savings to help fund our children's education.

[custosnox]

There are incentives now: raising productive, bright, and responsible humans is very gartifying and generally costs parents less in love ups down the road.

It's sad we even need to think of having to put artificial incentives out there as a motivator, but appreciate your point. What sort of incentives do you have in mind?

I agree, a parent should be a good parent for the sake of raising a child properly, it's a shame so many do not anymore. 
About the only incentive I could think of was a tax credit.  I figure at the very least, a parent that is involved with their kids today will potentially save the taxpayers the cost of caring for that child later, rather it be through walfare or through prison.
Personally I think parents should be held responsible for their kids.  Whatever happened to the good ole days where if your kid kept skipping school the parent got fined, same if the kid was out causing trouble.

[Conan71]

I agree, a parent should be a good parent for the sake of raising a child properly, it's a shame so many do not anymore. 
About the only incentive I could think of was a tax credit.  I figure at the very least, a parent that is involved with their kids today will potentially save the taxpayers the cost of caring for that child later, rather it be through walfare or through prison.
Personally I think parents should be held responsible for their kids.  Whatever happened to the good ole days where if your kid kept skipping school the parent got fined, same if the kid was out causing trouble.

"Those parents must just be victims of their own poor upbringing, so we can't expect them to be good parents and certainly can't hold them accountable"  Where's one of those puke emoticons when you need it?

Ahh:

[guido911]

You are confusing road building with funding. ODOT last year spent over $38 million in administration costs, and $82 million in engineering and only $65 million in operations. Their budget for last year was $1.8 billion and Obama dollars was another $462 million last year. Look at what we got for the $2.3 billion. Crappy roads.

Department of Corrections has a budget $477 million ($50 per month for a family of four). Any wonder why we are fifth in the nation in prisoners per capita (and first in female incarceration)?

I believe we could find some savings to help fund our children's education.

Isn't this post counter to your point? Throw money at ODOT? Fail. Throw money at prisons? Fail. Oh, but throw money at public schools, Win!

[nathanm]

Isn't this post counter to your point? Throw money at ODOT? Fail. Throw money at prisons? Fail. Oh, but throw money at public schools, Win!

I don't know how our road funding compares to other states, but our prison funding is sky high in comparison to others, while our school funding is nearly the lowest in the nation.

[Conan71]

I don't know how our road funding compares to other states, but our prison funding is sky high in comparison to others, while our school funding is nearly the lowest in the nation.

I've never really understood why we have so many prisons in the state.  You think a state of our size could operate on five or six large facilities rather than 46 facilities.  That count includes institutions, community corrections centers, community work centers, and private facilities.  You can add nine halfway housese to the list as well.

Staffing via a count on Wiki lists about 4500 total DOC employees.  2800 are listed as "insitutional staff" which I assume means prison employees.  The rest serve varying posts in probation, medical, admin, etc.

Our larger school systems are much the same way.  In sprawling metro areas like Tulsa and OKC we've got huge administrative staffs, buses, many campuses, etc.  How could we better consolidate without setting off the alarm on teacher to student ratios?  What is considered "ideal" these days?

I believe at Barnard the average class size was 25 or so, at Jenks it was around 30, and at Cascia, I had a history class with less than 10 in it and no class I can remember as being larger than 20 or so.  I didn't find it any more difficult to learn in a larger class environment.

[heironymouspasparagus]

And over half the ODOT budget goes to counties - you know, those shining lights of integrity and honesty - around the states.

Two inches of asphalt at a time over every road in the state still leaves garbage.

[swake]

I've never really understood why we have so many prisons in the state.  You think a state of our size could operate on five or six large facilities rather than 46 facilities.  That count includes institutions, community corrections centers, community work centers, and private facilities.  You can add nine halfway housese to the list as well.

Staffing via a count on Wiki lists about 4500 total DOC employees.  2800 are listed as "insitutional staff" which I assume means prison employees.  The rest serve varying posts in probation, medical, admin, etc.

Our larger school systems are much the same way.  In sprawling metro areas like Tulsa and OKC we've got huge administrative staffs, buses, many campuses, etc.  How could we better consolidate without setting off the alarm on teacher to student ratios?  What is considered "ideal" these days?

I believe at Barnard the average class size was 25 or so, at Jenks it was around 30, and at Cascia, I had a history class with less than 10 in it and no class I can remember as being larger than 20 or so.  I didn't find it any more difficult to learn in a larger class environment.

Prison Guard Unions use law and order conservative politicians and victims' rights groups to push legislation locking up more and more people for longer and longer prison terms in order to increase the size and power of the union under the guise of protecting the public.

We should be spending more on schools and cops to prevent crime, but it pays the union to lock up as many people as possible.

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2004/05/26/359/29521

http://prisonlaw.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/crime-victims-united-sues-california-over-early-release-plan/

[Conan71]

Unions in bed with conservatives?  Say it ain't so!

Swake, sounds a little black helicoptery to me:

"Public Defender Dude, a practicing Public Defender in California with a great blog, has a new piece up on the grossly excessive political clout of the California Prison Guards' Union. He says the power of the Abu Ghraib guards pales by comparison.

In California, the prison industry is the fastest growing industry around. In fact, if you want to talk about pure political muscle, there is no lobby quite as strong as the prison lobby. Consider what the prison guard's union has helped to accomplish in the last 20 years. They have increased tenfold the number of inmates in prison, they have increased exponentially the number of prisons, they have backed numerous draconian laws to ensure that more and more people go to prison for longer and longer for doing less and less.


The prison union has done more than that, though. They have also leaned on politicians to ensure that only district attorneys are appointed as judges. In the administrations of Governors Duekmeijian and Wilson (16 years total from 1982-1998), and even Gray Davis, judges were overwhelming chosen from the District Attorney's office. Thus, the judiciary is filled with law enforcement, with an agenda of putting away as many people as possible, no matter how much we have to subvert the laws to do it.

We'd note that Colorado's Governor Owens has the same plan--appointing former prosecutors as judges, ignoring the criminal defense bar. Here's more from the Dude, but go read the whole thing:

The effect on Criminal law has been dramatic. Through the tyranny of a doctrine known as "harmless error," the California Courts have managed to uphold a startlingly high amount of death senteces, no matter how flawed (the Federal Courts of Appeal in the 9th Circuit has been reversing these rulings an equally startling rate recently). The main thrust of every opinion is this: sure he didn't get a fair trial, and his statement shouldn't have come in as evidence, and the DA shouldn't have been able to bring out the fact that he likes pornography, and the police did do an illegal search, and the defense lawyer was prevented from cross-examining the witnesses, and wholesale hearsay was allowed in without a proper ability to confront it, but hey, we know he's guilty, and those errors were harmless, now let's kill him already.

We now have a judiciary that makes Mississippi's look like Earl Warren. California used to be a shining light of example for the rest of the country, now we're sneered at. Courts in states like Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Florida, Georgia, and other deep south states used to affirm an abnormally high rate of death sentences, something like 60-70%. California's affirmance rate is in the high 90s. And so much of this is thanks to the prison guard's union (I'm sure any right wing readers will be dusting off their checkbooks at this point to mail a donation to this union - don't bother, they're doing just fine looting the treasury instead).

Here's the kicker:

In fact, an article today in the LA Times details to what extent the prison guard's union runs this state's prnal system. They choose wardens, they get paid so much money that no one wants to become a supervisor - they have to leave the guard's union and they make less money). They get so much sick time they don't know what to do with it, and now they no longer need doctor's notes when they are suspected of abusing it. Overtime costs have skyrocketed, their pay keeps going up higher than any other public employee, and if they are asked to work a shift due to someone else calling in sick, they get paid overtime, even if they have called in sick themselves.

It is a total scam, and yet, I am more scared of them than I am of anyone else, because if, God forbid, I ever got into their sights as someone they wanted to get, they could get me. Have me put into prison for some trumped up reason, and they can guarantee that you never walk out alive. Their power makes Abu Ghraib look tame by comparison.

[guido911]

Oklahoma Hospital Association against 744

OKLAHOMA CITY — The Oklahoma Hospital Association is coming out against a ballot measure to increase education spending.

Officials from the group said Tuesday that passage of State Question 744 would devastate health care funding in Oklahoma, in part by reducing federal health care matching funds by $343 million.

The proposed constitutional amendment would require Oklahoma within three years to meet the regional average of per-student spending in surrounding states. It will be on the November ballot.

Estimates on how much the proposal would cost Oklahoma during the next three years range from about $900 million to $1.7 billion.

Yes on 744 spokesman Walton Robinson says the OHA's claims are unrealistic and amount to "scare tactics."


Read more from this Tulsa World article at http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=262&articleid=20101005_11_0_OKLAHO941838

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectid=262&articleid=20101005_11_0_OKLAHO941838

I'm a "No" for other reasons.