State Question 744

[Gaspar]

You mean they aren't? 

Many are too lazy to freeload.

[RecycleMichael]

 You can't just ask for more money and not give me some specifics as to what your going to do with it.  I need to know or have some reasonable feeling that what is going to happen with the money will make an effective, cost effective, best possible, positive, accountable, difference.

You are only hearing one side of the argument. Don't listen to anti-education forces...

The bill actually increases accountability in spending. This bill requires accountability by forcing a open review of how the money is spent, something other agencies are not required to do.

"The Education Oversight Board and the Office of Accountability shall publish an annual report on the expenditure of common education revenue, which shall include reports regarding the expenditures for classroom instruction and for administrative costs. The Education Oversight Board and the Offices of Accountability shall also publish an annual report on student achievement results and the overall performance of common schools."

[Townsend]

You are only hearing one side of the argument. Don't listen to anti-education forces...

The bill actually increases accountability in spending. This bill requires accountability by forcing a open review of how the money is spent, something other agencies are not required to do.

"The Education Oversight Board and the Office of Accountability shall publish an annual report on the expenditure of common education revenue, which shall include reports regarding the expenditures for classroom instruction and for administrative costs. The Education Oversight Board and the Offices of Accountability shall also publish an annual report on student achievement results and the overall performance of common schools."

Why isn't this more obvious to us, the uneducated masses?  They need to inform better.

[RecycleMichael]

Why isn't this more obvious to us, the uneducated masses?  They need to inform better.

I agree. I have no relationship with the campaign and don't know anyone involved. I don't even have a yard sign.

I just post my thoughts on here so others can argue.

[sgrizzle]

You are only hearing one side of the argument. Don't listen to anti-education forces...

The bill actually increases accountability in spending. This bill requires accountability by forcing a open review of how the money is spent, something other agencies are not required to do.

"The Education Oversight Board and the Office of Accountability shall publish an annual report on the expenditure of common education revenue, which shall include reports regarding the expenditures for classroom instruction and for administrative costs. The Education Oversight Board and the Offices of Accountability shall also publish an annual report on student achievement results and the overall performance of common schools."

Reporting on how you do your job != Doing your job well

Think of how many reports we have on the work done by our elected officials, but we still keep electing them.

[Gaspar]

"The Education Oversight Board and the Office of Accountability shall publish an annual report on the expenditure of common education revenue, which shall include reports regarding the expenditures for classroom instruction and for administrative costs. The Education Oversight Board and the Offices of Accountability shall also publish an annual report on student achievement results and the overall performance of common schools."

This is "provisional" it is a task that the DOE already requires, and has required for decades.  The reports are available for ALL states on the data.gov website as well as the DOE websites for most individual states.  The state is also required to report an analysis of expenditures from all funding sources and comparative data on student performance.

This and several other "provisional" items are included in the measure to make it seem like some NEW analysis will be taking place, when the preperation of such reports only requires a request for data collected from the DOE, or simply downloading the file and slapping an Education Oversight Board cover on it.  There is no mention of any new metric or reporting, simply citation of practices already performed. 

Reading the measure in context helps. http://ballotpedia.org/wiki/index.php/Oklahoma_State_Question_744,_constitutional_text_changes#cite_note-0

[Conan71]

I found this article while searching for some sort of standard to measure academic performance versus our neighboring states.  It's not what I was looking for but the article maintains it's good reform, not money which will make the biggest difference in outcomes:

"In 1998, Oklahoma students outscored Florida students, on average, by 13 points on NAEP's fourth-grade reading exam. In 2009, however, on the same test, Florida students scored 9 points higher than Oklahoma students, almost a grade level ahead according to NAEP. In addition, between 1998 and 2009, Oklahoma's Hispanic students improved their average score by 3 points on NAEP's fourth-grade reading test. Florida's Hispanic students, meanwhile, increased their average score by 25 points.

"Contrary to what some might think, Florida's progress is not a product of more money but rather the result of an aggressive series of educational reforms," Bill Price, chairman of the Oklahoma School Choice Coalition, said. "Recently, Oklahoma has adopted some of these reforms, and if Florida is any indication it would be wise to expand them."

Price is referring to several recent reforms including an alternative teacher certification path that will enlarge the potential pool of quality teachers in Oklahoma, which the legislature enacted in 2009. In addition, the state improved its charter school law and created a private school choice program in 2010—the Lindsey Nicole Henry Scholarships for Students with Disabilities Program—for students with special needs. However, according to the study, Oklahoma's state testing, school choice opportunities, and accountability measures still need strengthened.

"Florida's experience shows that a number of strategies must be employed to raise student achievement levels, especially among disadvantaged youth," Phyllis Hudecki, Executive Director of the Oklahoma Business & Education Coalition, said. "Just as Florida did, we must look at our own areas in need of improvement and make necessary changes to ensure our students are receiving educations that prepare them for life."

http://www.edchoice.org/Newsroom/News/Oklahoma-academic-performance-suffers-without-widespread-reform.aspx

[Conan71]

There's some interesting metrics in school finance, it's not simply about gross dollars spent, nor dollars spent per pupil.  Interesting to note though, Oklahoma actually spends more per pupil than California. 

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.finance.pdf

Oklahoma also ranks very high on course and grade-specific standards (top 10) and is also one of only seven states so far to adopt policies which tie teacher review criteria to actual student performance

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.saa.pdf

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.teaching.pdf

http://www.edweek.org/media/2009/12/18/stateofstates-c1.jpg

So, apparently, we already have many high standards of achievement in place.  I'm not sure how long these have been in place to see how they are working.

[sgrizzle]

There's some interesting metrics in school finance, it's not simply about gross dollars spent, nor dollars spent per pupil.  Interesting to note though, Oklahoma actually spends more per pupil than California. 

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.finance.pdf

Oklahoma also ranks very high on course and grade-specific standards (top 10) and is also one of only seven states so far to adopt policies which tie teacher review criteria to actual student performance

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.saa.pdf

http://www.edweek.org/media/ew/qc/2010/17sos.h29.teaching.pdf

http://www.edweek.org/media/2009/12/18/stateofstates-c1.jpg

So, apparently, we already have many high standards of achievement in place.  I'm not sure how long these have been in place to see how they are working.

Many are < 1yr

[Conan71]

Reading through the construction news this morning, thus far I've uncovered a 9600 sq. ft. indoor practice facility for the Chisholm, Ok. school system and a 30,000 sq ft. community center bidding to the Kiefer Public Schools, a new multi-purpose building for Friend Public Schools, a 1750 sq ft early childhood building for Kildare Elementary in Ponca City, Statue Viewing Plaza Project - Pioneer Technology Center Ponca City, a 4100 sq. ft. middle school weight room and locker room for Deer Creek, etc. ad nauseum.

In other words, school systems can find the money to build more and more PAC's, weight rooms for middle schoolers, and indoor baseball practice facilities yet the idea is we don't put enough funding into education.  Once they learn proper priorities, I'll start to sympathize that they need more money. 

[Gaspar]

Reading through the construction news this morning, thus far I've uncovered a 9600 sq. ft. indoor practice facility for the Chisholm, Ok. school system and a 30,000 sq ft. community center bidding to the Kiefer Public Schools, a new multi-purpose building for Friend Public Schools, a 1750 sq ft early childhood building for Kildare Elementary in Ponca City, Statue Viewing Plaza Project - Pioneer Technology Center Ponca City, a 4100 sq. ft. middle school weight room and locker room for Deer Creek, etc. ad nauseum.

In other words, school systems can find the money to build more and more PAC's, weight rooms for middle schoolers, and indoor baseball practice facilities yet the idea is we don't put enough funding into education.  Once they learn proper priorities, I'll start to sympathize that they need more money. 

Public schools in Oklahoma have a football player quota to meet.

[RecycleMichael]

I don't disagree that education money has been spent for the wrong priorities and that there is plenty of waste. I feel that there is plenty of waste in other areas of government too. We just don't scrutinize it as much. Most people have no clue as to the amount of state prisons we have built or state roads that only serve a rural politician's few constuents.

But I refusing to fund all schools because some are prioritizing differently is unfair to all the others. Did you demand we stop paying for our troops when we learned of $1,000 toilet seats or when Halliburton got a billion dollar no-bid contract? Did you stop contributing blood to the Red Cross when it was uncovered that they had given six-figure bonuses to New York staffers after 9/11?

Of course not. We support these causes because we also see the good work that they do.

Vote yes.

[Conan71]

I don't disagree that education money has been spent for the wrong priorities and that there is plenty of waste. I feel that there is plenty of waste in other areas of government too. We just don't scrutinize it as much. Most people have no clue as to the amount of state prisons we have built or state roads that only serve a rural politician's few constuents.

But I refusing to fund all schools because some are prioritizing differently is unfair to all the others. Did you demand we stop paying for our troops when we learned of $1,000 toilet seats or when Halliburton got a billion dollar no-bid contract? Did you stop contributing blood to the Red Cross when it was uncovered that they had given six-figure bonuses to New York staffers after 9/11?

Of course not. We support these causes because we also see the good work that they do.

Vote yes.

People complain about the waste but they won't ever vote against it.  People want members of Congress to get vigilant about run-away spending and the one member who is doing that is villified

I'm sorry RM, but at some point someone has to make that first step.  We apparently have just recently enacted some accountability measures for teachers, let's see what those do for our performance.  By some accounts we are 49th in spending, but we don't appear to be 49th in results.  Voters, as the owners of school systems and government, need to send a message to those who serve us we are tired of waste and self-serving measures.  I find no new accountability measures in this bill, it simply confiscates money from other areas like DHS, without regard for which areas of DHS could be hit hardest.  If they will come back later with a set of priorities and performance-specific goals, I'll consider voting for such a measure.  I'm not going to give them more money to build indoor baseball practice facilities for podunk school districts which should probably be consolidated in the first place.  No thanks.

This is simply too much like the river tax where they were in a huge rush to tie up tax dollars and give us the details on where that money would go later on.  Just this week, three years after the river tax went down in flames, we find out it may be up to four years before the USACE is done with their studies on the river corridor.

I promise if there's a state question like this for prisons, roads, or more monuments in OKC, I'll be against it.