Downtown Post Office (Paige Belcher Bldg)

[TheArtist]

There's probably no bigger afficinado of MCM architecture on here than myself (okay, there are some infrequent posters on TNF who live in Lortondale as well and share my passion) and I think this was mid-century done wrong.  I had the same argument about old City Hall with Hometown a few years back.  To me, the PBFB is a cold, intimidating, Politiburo-style fortress.  It looks like a jail to me.  It fit that part of downtown in 1967 when it was completed, but with the change in the cityscape around it, it's horribly out of place now.

Some of the reasons a number of people do not like the building, are some of the very reasons I do.  I like that it reminds me of certain aspects of the "Cold War" era.  I think its a great example of the stark, monolithic type government structures you saw from that time.  I am not advocating that we build more of them lol, but if we tear this one down,,, what other buildings do we have that will stand as "stark reminders" of the time? I think there is a value in having something that does remind us of all kinds of aspects and times in our history.  I think those are the reasons that make this particular building unique in Tulsa, and neat looking.  The other buildings around the plaza dont have any where near the "Brutalist" feel that this one does.  And its not Brutalist.  

 On one forum people were asking for Brutalist architecture examples from each persons city.  I couldn't think of a one.  They are danged ugly on the one hand, but they are a neat addition to the landscape of a city.  I liken a downtown to an art gallery or museum.  I think it enrichens a city if you can drive or walk down its streets and see examples of all kinds of art/architectural styles from throughout its history.  You may prefer the Bougereau over the Picasso or Pollock, but hey its still a neat experience to look at a painting and go "yuck!" lol  Even a not very interesting, to put it nicely, Picasso (and I think Philbrooks fits that category) is interesting and valuable to see, not just because of its particular aesthetics alone, but for what its very existance evokes concerning the rest of his works, the genre in general, and how that contrast or fits in with the rest of the works in the museum.

 This may not be the finest, stark "commie block, cold war" or however you want to describe it, style building downtown... but what other ones do we have that would fit the bill to evoke that type of architecture and interesting note in our history?  

 I have seen photos of downtown Tulsa when it had buildings that looked very Victorian made of heavy blocks of stone, rounded turrets, etc. There is not a single example of that era and style left that I know of.  Lousy example or not, common example or not, I wish we had something that could remind us of that part of our history.  Its as if our downtown suddenly appeared in the late teens and early twenties with nothing before that.  I think we are missing something of our selves because of that.  

 You may not like this building, but I think it has a unique place in the architectural and historical landscape of our downtown.  

[Renaissance]

Here's the website for new federal courthouse projects.  http://www.gsa.gov/Portal/gsa/ep/contentView.do?programId=8393&channelId=-12922&ooid=8294&contentId=14152&pageTypeId=8195&contentType=GSA_BASIC&programPage=%2Fep%2Fprogram%2FgsaBasic.jsp&P=PM

Tulsa is on the list, but there is no telling when it could happen.  Not before 2012 though, if you navigate that site to the project funding guide. 

Rep. Sullivan ought to put this on his list.  Maybe I'll email his office tomorrow about it.

Apparently someone more important than I am had the same idea.  Here's the same list, new URL: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/101223

I am guessing that the work stageidea helped with was authorized by the $2.7 million allotted in the 2009 stimulus package: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/content/103683

Apparently the courthouse is not important enough to make GSA's list, though... someone left it off of the Oklahoma facilities list: http://www.gsa.gov/portal/category/21494

[Markk]

Dream on.  Senator No or Senator Inhofe will kill any prospect of spending money on a new federal building.

[SXSW]

Dream on.  Senator No or Senator Inhofe will kill any prospect of spending money on a new federal building.

Inhofe might if they pledged to call it the James Inhofe Federal Building as his legacy project in his hometown.  Though I think that once the Aloft and One Place are completed there will be more pressure to replace it...

[Conan71]

And the conference I'm at right now is for religious meeting planners from around the country.  This is just one type of planner; there are associations, sports, social groups . . . you name it, there're people out there who plan the meetings.  I can't tell you the number of groups that won't look at Tulsa because of the number of hotel rooms we DON'T have.  This is millions of dollars in revenue that we're turning down, and I saw it happen several times TODAY.

Well, seems that those of us who said we could build an 18,000 seat arena and we still wouldn't get top acts like Sir Paul, Sir Elton, Springsteen, Dave Matthews, Eagles, etc. were dead donkey wrong.  Your assertion that if we had more rooms we could get more convention business seems to have some traction based on the BOK Center example.  Glad to have your input as someone who works in the industry.

[Renaissance]

Dream on.  Senator No or Senator Inhofe will kill any prospect of spending money on a new federal building.

It's not clear that you understand the way these things work.  It's on the list for eventual replacement.  Tulsa, as the seat of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma, will someday have a new federal building constructed downtown to replace Page Belcher, which is becoming obsolete.  The GSA doesn't do "adaptive reuse" unless they designate a building as historic, like the Boulder courthouse.  And lemme tell you, that ain't happening here.

Now, while there's not a question of if, there's a question of when this will happen.  In these situations, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and intervention by the office of a US Senator is how you get a new federal building fast tracked.  If Senator Inhofe, the former mayor and not exactly an infrastructure obstructionist, chooses to make it a priority, I don't know any reason Tulsa couldn't be added to this list for site/design work in FY 2014 or 2015: http://www.gsa.gov/graphics/pbs/FY_2011-2015_approved_2112010.pdf.  

Of course, that list also shows how long this process takes.  Any earlier would really surprise me.  But it has always been something that was going to happen eventually.

[DTowner]

Well, seems that those of us who said we could build an 18,000 seat arena and we still wouldn't get top acts like Sir Paul, Sir Elton, Springsteen, Dave Matthews, Eagles, etc. were dead donkey wrong.  Your assertion that if we had more rooms we could get more convention business seems to have some traction based on the BOK Center example.  Glad to have your input as someone who works in the industry.

I think that is a valid point.  How big of a hotel at the Paige Belcher site is needed to attract the next level of convention/conference?  Also, I assume that, like the old Westin (now Crown Plaza), the construction of any hotel that large would probably have to be at least partially subsidized by the city/county.  Good luck with that in the current political/economic climate.

In the past year or so downtown added hotels rooms at the Mayo, the Atlas Life Building and the Holiday Inn.  Plans are to add more hotel rooms at the old city hall, across from the BOK Center and in the Brady District.  Downtown has improved, but there are very few new businesses here now as compared to a few years ago that create an increased demand for hotel rooms.  Is there sufficient demand to use all these newly added and currently planned rooms above and beyond conventions/conferences?  Even if we build a large hotel at the PB site and that helps Tulsa land 10 or 15 major conventions/conferences a year, that still leaves a lot of nights with a lot of vacant rooms.  The recent financial troubles at the Crown Plaza demonstrate that buidling or remodeling a hotel is only the first step, then you have to fill it up to keep it open and operating.

I am not opposed, I just question if we are there yet.  In the end, it may not be a bad thing that nothing is likely to happen to PB for the next few years.

[SXSW]

I am not opposed, I just question if we are there yet.  In the end, it may not be a bad thing that nothing is likely to happen to PB for the next few years.

I'd say wait for the Aloft and One Place projects to come to completion.  Those two projects will completely change the dynamic of that area of downtown.  If everything goes as planned (fingers crossed), there will be a 200 room hotel where an empty, rundown building currently sits adjacent to the convention center, a renovated Civic Center Plaza and a mixed-use apartment building with street level retail/restaurant space, a 120 room hotel, and a 15 story office building where there is currently a parking lot across from the BOK Center.  Only then will there be pressure to remove Page Belcher and either build a larger hotel (if needed) or turn it into a park/plaza. 

If a new federal building is built, where in downtown would you put it? 

[waterboy]

Those buildings reflect the personality change that Tulsa went through in the 60's-70's from well heeled oilies who moved here from back east in the early part of the century with their Deco, Gothic etc tastes to cowboy conservatives and their plane jane concepts that bullied the city in later decades. There was pressure then as now to keep government expenditure as low as possible. Originally the Civic Center complex was to be larger iirc. Combine that with the passion for modernism during that period that Oral Roberts was providing and you come up with those ugly buildings that replaced some nice period architecture. They actually thought they represented futurist, low cost government. Think George Jetson.

Blow em up or sell em to hotel chains. Doesnt' bother me a bit. Anything is an improvement at this point.

[Markk]

It's not clear that you understand the way these things work.  It's on the list for eventual replacement.  Tulsa, as the seat of the United States District Court for the Northern District of Oklahoma, will someday have a new federal building constructed downtown to replace Page Belcher, which is becoming obsolete.  The GSA doesn't do "adaptive reuse" unless they designate a building as historic, like the Boulder courthouse.  And lemme tell you, that ain't happening here.

Now, while there's not a question of if, there's a question of when this will happen.  In these situations, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, and intervention by the office of a US Senator is how you get a new federal building fast tracked.  If Senator Inhofe, the former mayor and not exactly an infrastructure obstructionist, chooses to make it a priority, I don't know any reason Tulsa couldn't be added to this list for site/design work in FY 2014 or 2015: http://www.gsa.gov/graphics/pbs/FY_2011-2015_approved_2112010.pdf.  

Of course, that list also shows how long this process takes.  Any earlier would really surprise me.  But it has always been something that was going to happen eventually.

hmmm.  Someday our sun will nova and die, but I'm not making any plans on that either.

[DTowner]

Those buildings reflect the personality change that Tulsa went through in the 60's-70's from well heeled oilies who moved here from back east in the early part of the century with their Deco, Gothic etc tastes to cowboy conservatives and their plane jane concepts that bullied the city in later decades. There was pressure then as now to keep government expenditure as low as possible. Originally the Civic Center complex was to be larger iirc. Combine that with the passion for modernism during that period that Oral Roberts was providing and you come up with those ugly buildings that replaced some nice period architecture. They actually thought they represented futurist, low cost government. Think George Jetson.

I don't think it is fair to blame "cowboy conservatives" in Tulsa for the ugliness that is the Paige Belcher building.  As a federal court house/post office, I assume even then GSA had significant input on its style and design  Governments everywhere built some pretty hideous looking buildings during that time period.  Whether that was a result of some modernist style or because they were cheap, I can't say.

[waterboy]

You could be right. Of course previous state/federal buildings weren't so hideous. I just wanted to point out that Oklahoma, and Tulsa in particular, made a quantum change in personality during that time period. We changed from a progressive, Democratic leaning state to a more conservative, gubmnt critical state. We embraced a sense of "gee whiz" futurism but we wanted it on a beer budget. Probably a function of the dichotomy of education and wealth around here.

[dbacks fan]

I have been reading this thread about the Page Belcher building partly because I could never figure out what it is that I did'nt like about it, and I think it was Conan that made the comment "Politburo" feeling, and someone else made the comment about how cold it feels, and thank you Artist for some insight as well. I always felt that it was a cold structure when compared to the YMCA, Library, Civic Center, but then those contrast with the County Court House, and the original Federal Court House, and the Army Corp Of Eng. Bldg. as well as all of the Deco, and what I consider (JMO) the pre Deco of the Brady area. I think the thing that is missing in DT is the Streamline era.

I love the mix of Mid-Town, Down Town, Swan Lake, and the FLW influence. I have lived in Phoenix for 12 years, and while the down town area is fun, alot of the history is gone.

I think, that with the right planning and depending on when PBFC is scheduled for replacement, that if you look at the grand scheme, you could tie the Double Tree to BOk with above street walkways, and keep the originality of the outside of PBFC but make the inside a combination of meeting/conference/ballrooms, with hotel rooms, build a parking structure on the west side of the building, with ground floor being retail of some kind, and find something that could tie in from BOk and PB towards the Williams Center, and tie that to a Boulder overpass which would connect Brady, Blue Dome, OneOk, BOk and most of the hotels. (I know, I hear Supertramps 'Dreamer')

[Daniel Wright]

I hate to see old buildings be torn down but my God that is an ugly building. 

[PonderInc]

A friend who knows a lot about mid-century architecture once told me that the panels on this building were installed upside down.  (Which, if you look at it, sort of makes sense...if they were flipped, they would look like funky arches, instead of...uh....whatever they look like now..wings?)  He said that this explains the problems with the water running down and staining the walls--the signature weepy tears that the building has always produced.

On another front, does anyone know what kind of stone is on the walls inside?  (The same stone was used to carve the cool "tables" in the post office area.)  I assume is some sort of marble.  To me, this is the most beautiful aspect of the building.  Also, is it possible to salvage terrazzo flooring?  My thought is that if the building DOES get torn down, there should be a concerted effort to salvage anything of value rather than just throwing it in a landfill.  It could be a way to honor Tulsa's "Green City" initiative as well as trying to be a little bit respectful of our architectural history.  (I've always loved the doors, too.)