Tulsa West Bank Development

[Hoss]

Quit teasing!  I've had to look at that case of beer since the day after it came out.

Last thing I did before I left for Colorado was stick two sixers in the fridge for my return. 

But...I will get to enjoy some Pagosa Brewing Pow Pow IPA Sunday night.  Great way to fall off the beer wagon!

Let me know when you get back; maybe we'll just go to McNellie's and we can have 'em on tap.

[Townsend]

Let me know when you get back; maybe we'll just go to McNellie's and we can have 'em on tap.

Give me a head's up.

[Conan71]

Mon/Tues next week are best for me. 

I brought back two growlers one with the PBC IPA and their red ale. Unfortunately, the seal on their growlers are incredibly sensitive and I had a couple of spray-outs.  Just hoping I can drink them quick enough so they don't lose the fizz

[Townsend]

Good either day

[Ronnie Lowe]

I drove over the Canadian River on my way to Dallas a while back and noticed that it was one of those "Sandy Bar" rivers like the Arkansas River.  It looked like the Arkansas River I remember from growing up here and I thought how unnatural and wasteful the low water dams on the Arkansas are and will be.  There is a clique of opinion makers hereabouts that have decided Tulsa's greatest purpose is to be a Branson, Missouri knock off.
 
But, instead of junking up the west bank of the Arkansas with cheapy "built to be torn down" developments why don't we take all available land on the west bank for parkland and mirror the paths that are so well loved on the east bank of the river?
 
I know, too classy for T-town.

Now, here come the misguided opinion-makers with their tired old mantra "water in the river, water in the river."

Millions and millions spent on low water dams that won't survive a generation.

[Townsend]

Now, here come the misguided opinion-makers with their tired old mantra "water in the river, water in the river."

Makes you look bad when you type things like that.  Just a heads up.

[Ronnie Lowe]

Saying things like that certainly won't endear me to the tired old opinion-makers.

[Townsend]

Saying things like that certainly won't endear me to the tired old opinion-makers.

Or people looking to have a civil discussion.

[Conan71]

I drove over the Canadian River on my way to Dallas a while back and noticed that it was one of those "Sandy Bar" rivers like the Arkansas River.  It looked like the Arkansas River I remember from growing up here and I thought how unnatural and wasteful the low water dams on the Arkansas are and will be.  There is a clique of opinion makers hereabouts that have decided Tulsa's greatest purpose is to be a Branson, Missouri knock off.
 
But, instead of junking up the west bank of the Arkansas with cheapy "built to be torn down" developments why don't we take all available land on the west bank for parkland and mirror the paths that are so well loved on the east bank of the river?
 
I know, too classy for T-town.

Now, here come the misguided opinion-makers with their tired old mantra "water in the river, water in the river."

Millions and millions spent on low water dams that won't survive a generation.

Actually Ronnie, they have and recently completed a complete re-pave of the west trail system all the way to I-44.  There's trails running from 11th St. (SW Blvd) to 71st on the west bank.  Unfortunately, they don't get completely unfettered access to the riverbank due to existing power plant and waste treatment plant structures.  If you have not been out there since it was completed, go visit the new Turkey Mountain urban wilderness area on Elwood north of 71st.  It's one of the more peaceful and scenic places in Tulsa.

I've enjoyed being able to row on Zink Lake so I guess you'd say I have skin in the game when it comes to the LWD at 31st.  I'm somewhat ambiguous on LWD's further down or upstream and really don't care for a bunch of drecky commercial development up and down the banks.  

Finally, quit being a stranger.  I like to hear you chime in, even if it's usually half way twisted

[Ronnie Lowe]

Or people looking to have a civil discussion.

The term "water in the river" has risen above discussion and become a mantra.  It has become a symbol.  You literally hear those words repeatedly, as if they were echoes of a speech at a meeting.  It reminds me of other of Tulsa's mantras like the "Diversification" mantra that was repeated for decades as the reality of diversification was slowly imploding.  Mantras have lives of their own, separate from reality.

A park lining the west bank, including the parcels offered for development, would be a wonderful asset for Tulsa and would best showcase the river.

[AquaMan]

Strangely, my views are similar to Conan's on this subject. I do hear the mantra and I always try to defend this natural river's personality which doesn't always include water. But I too enjoy kayaking on Zink Lake (was out there this evening) and I think it serves a purpose as an inner city attraction. It needs more attention to detail and certainly more usage by watercraft. A big bag of money would help that.

 I have seen the plans for the white water kayak park below a re-designed low water dam and I think you would be impressed. These guys put some real life thought into its design. It is tons better than any west bank development plans I've seen and will attract actual usage of the river on the east side and perhaps stimulate some development at 31st. That will leave the west bank, whose paths are already improved, a fine location for a big park as SXSW and others have described.

But you should note, Ron, that even the Corps of Engineers had included in their long range plans the construction of a re-regulating dam in the Sand Springs area from the very beginning. The idea is to keep enough water in the river to sustain wildlife and keep it sandy. When SS hurriedly built a low quality dam and eventually had to blow it up, the river began to change for the worst. In spite of my hesitance for dam construction, I think one re-regulating dam upstream is probably necessary.


W

[TheArtist]

I agree enhancing the park space along the west bank would be nice, there are some nice trails and park spaces already there. Lets also remember that the parcels we are talking about developing across from downtown represent a tiny fraction of the entire river as it runs through Tulsa and Tulsa County. There will be pleeeeenty of space left by the river that can have all kinds of various types of parks, from more natural to manicured, etc. along it.

I also think that redoing the SS dam and doing it as a more capable re-regulating dam would be welcome.  It would help the water flow at more times for it would contain big flows from Keystone and then a little more naturally "parcel" that out over longer periods of the day. Won't return the river back to the way it was before Keystone, but will help a little, and will have the side effect of putting "water in the river" more often.  I also like the new kayak park and hope they enhance the old zink dam to make it easier for fish to migrate over and add safety features.  Will they be doing more of a stair step feature with the improvements?


As for any other dams, I have no interest for its mostly Jenks that wants one lol.

[AquaMan]

The new design dissipates the energy of the water after it travels over the dam. I don't remember the specific terminology but it is fairly simple utilizing large rocks piled against the downside of the dam to eliminate the undertow. A person who insists on going over the dam may end up with broken bones but could still survive.

As far as the West Bank development being developed as a Central Park type use, there are several impediments involving those parcels of land. The cement plant will be very expensive both in purchase and reclamation, the design of the amphitheatre lagoon is ghastly and has to be redone, the amphitheatre itself needs replaced, and public Works has to be dealt with. Then a design that creatively uses such a large tract of land, divided by 23rd street and adjoining subsidized low income housing and that returns little or no revenue to the city/county.....is going to be a neat trick.

[SXSW]

The new design dissipates the energy of the water after it travels over the dam. I don't remember the specific terminology but it is fairly simple utilizing large rocks piled against the downside of the dam to eliminate the undertow. A person who insists on going over the dam may end up with broken bones but could still survive.

This should also make the dams look more attractive as they will resemble more of a natural waterfall/rapids.  Especially if they end up using rocks and not just concrete.

As far as the West Bank development being developed as a Central Park type use, there are several impediments involving those parcels of land. The cement plant will be very expensive both in purchase and reclamation, the design of the amphitheatre lagoon is ghastly and has to be redone, the amphitheatre itself needs replaced, and public Works has to be dealt with. Then a design that creatively uses such a large tract of land, divided by 23rd street and adjoining subsidized low income housing and that returns little or no revenue to the city/county.....is going to be a neat trick.

Agree...either way it will be difficult to develop because of these issues.  Though turning it into a park would be easier.  A larger amphitheater actually on land next to the water (like Auditorium Shores in Austin) would be much more utilized than what's currently there, which is falling apart.  Some really cool park design ideas could be implemented over there for the same amount of money some developer would pour into a residential/shopping complex at that site.  I still think our focus should be on developing existing areas along the river, and those areas are on the east bank: Riverview, Blair property, Pedestrian Bridge/whitewater park, Crow Creek Apartments, etc.

I personally love what Louisville did with their recently-built riverfront park.  Like our west bank their site was old industrial property next to a major highway interchange, not the best land for residential/retail development even though downtown is nearby and it's next to the Ohio River.  Instead they turned it into a multi-use park with trails, green space, water fountains, playgrounds, a marina, beach, natural areas, etc.  I drove through Louisville earlier this summer and checked it out and it's great.  I would LOVE to see something like this on the west bank in Tulsa.

Aerial


Amphitheater


They planted the majority of these trees

[we vs us]

So what's the deal with Westport?  You've got several acres of rental condos over there in one of the worst conceivable places in Tulsa IMHO (right under an elevated highway, near a train yard, near freaking REFINERIES, near public housing, far far away from any amenities); yet they don't seem to get the lowest common denominator, and they seem to have relatively robust occupancy.  Westport seems to prove that residential can happen over there, and yet I can't for the life of me identify what qualities it's got that makes people who aren't squatters want to live there.  


EDIT:  Okay I take that back:  proximity to downtown and proximity to the river. But that's all I got.