Have Christians hurt their image among non-Christians?

[RecycleMichael]

I hope that we can have a rational discussion about image, perception and relationships in religion and not about the actual beliefs or even the personalities of religious leaders. I really hope we can.

Have Christians hurt their image among non-Christians? Has the discussion about the words "Christmas" versus "Holiday" on a parade permit application caused a rift in relationships among families, friends or co-workers?

I don't mean this as a judgement. If anything, I have a lot of experience of environmentalists being so bat-s@#t crazy that non-environmentalists can't stand them and conspicuously annoy them. If Major League Baseball strikes this next spring, non-baseball fans will clearly feel strongly enough to dislike it less.

Maybe it is just some of the  people I have been around the last week. If the name of the parade came up in any conversation, some people would instantly tell me their side with passion. It made me feel uncomfortable. I tried to make up lots of jokes about it on my facebook profile, but that is usually my way of dealing with uncomfortable issues anyway. 

What do you guys think?

[waterboy]

We sell cards at our store. We were visited by a couple of notorious people a few weeks ago around Thanksgiving. One a local publisher, one a local state representative. I recognized them both and watched as they looked through all of our stock. They didn't want any help from anyone. Knowing these two, I suspected a setup and looked for a news crew in the parking lot. As they checked out, separately, they griped to the cashier about our lack of Christmas cards. After all they argued, this is Christmas and they objected to the removal of the word Christ from our cards. Problem was, we are mindful of all of our customers so we DID have Christmas cards, Seasons Greetings, Holiday Wishes, Happy Hanukkah, Joyeaux Noel etc. Just about everything was covered. After all we're a retailer to folks whose business is business, not religion.

They were looking for a fight but didn't find one.. They didn't have the guts to approach the manager, whose father was Jewish, whose mother was Christian and who graduated from Bishop Kelley. How do you think that 20 year old cashier responded to me about these "Christians"? She said they were nuts. That's the impression these zealot Christians are making.

[guido911]

What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?

[Conan71]

Waterboy, that's a funny story about the cards.  For as long as I can recall, there's been "Happy Holiday" and Hannukah cards, it's hardly anything new.  I do think some people are looking for trouble because they simply like to grumble.

I can see this from both sides of the issue.  One one hand, I grew up with this time of year being "Christmas Time".  To me it still is.  In my family and my personal space, we/I celebrate Christmas.  However, when it comes to sending greetings or cards over email to customers or people I don't know overly well, I'm cautious to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know that person is a Christian.  

I think people as old as myself and older and probably ten years younger than myself might see their tradition being trampled on because public events and displays have taken Christmas out of the name.  I think it's a smaller percentage of Christians who are truly outraged about the Tulsa Christmas parade issue.  Most I believe take a more moderate and understanding approach to it or will quietly igore the parade as a quiet protest.  

[custosnox]

What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?

The parade buisness hasn't changed the perception, just highlighted the image.  Personally I can almost see Inhofs position on it, though in this case it seems more grandstanding.  It doesn't make how he went about it the right thing to do, but people have to stand for what they believe in.  But over all the image gets pushed more in more in the direction of Christians being intolerant to those with views other than their own.

[custosnox]

Waterboy, that's a funny story about the cards.  For as long as I can recall, there's been "Happy Holiday" and Hannukah cards, it's hardly anything new.  I do think some people are looking for trouble because they simply like to grumble.

I can see this from both sides of the issue.  One one hand, I grew up with this time of year being "Christmas Time".  To me it still is.  In my family and my personal space, we/I celebrate Christmas.  However, when it comes to sending greetings or cards over email to customers or people I don't know overly well, I'm cautious to say "Happy Holidays" unless I know that person is a Christian. 

I think people as old as myself and older and probably ten years younger than myself might see their tradition being trampled on because public events and displays have taken Christmas out of the name.  I think it's a smaller percentage of Christians who are truly outraged about the Tulsa Christmas parade issue.  Most I believe take a more moderate and understanding approach to it or will quietly igore the parade as a quiet protest. 

Personally I stick with Merry Christmas regardless.  Of course if I had a client base to worry about I might be a little more selective.  Now the good part of it is that I'm not a Christian.  December 25 is Christmas, and I celebrate it as a holiday of giving.  Kinda like Easter is celebrated by Christians, and call it Easter, though the name itself has no Christian basis.  The time of year I do call the hollidays.

[RecycleMichael]

What was the Christians' "image" to non-Christians before this parade renaming mess?

I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I am asking questions here. If you are a Christian (or not), tell us what you think the image is and has it changed locally because of local events?

[waterboy]

I still consider it Christmas and have no problem sending Christmas cards, and truly enjoying the holiday as a Christian. If I know a friend is Jewish I send a different card for sure. However, like you Conan, I also see it as a season. One that many faiths and crazies can enjoy as they see fit. I also made a personal decision as to whether I would attend the parade this year based on whether the permit was allowed and a certain Senator was going to be in attendance   and kept it to myself. The name was the least of my concern as a Christian. Go that route and pretty soon every branch of Christianity wants its own parade. Now if they had refused to allow Christian floats? Different story.

Why is it so important to so many people that everyone see the world exactly as they do? Are they fearful that their own beliefs cannot withstand comparison with others? Is it a competitive thing? The proselytizing for faith, for education and for politics seems like its growing way to fast.

[guido911]

I am not trying to put words in anybody's mouth. I am asking questions here. If you are a Christian (or not), tell us what you think the image is and has it changed locally because of local events?

I know your not and my question was serious. The premise of this thread, as I understand it, is that Christians might have an image problem after some voiced opposition to the name change.

My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites. When they vocalize their outrage to this hostility, though, it's the Christians' image that is of concern? In my experience, Christians are generally not selfish but rather very giving and charitable. I also believe they can be defensive. If their image has been hurt over this relatively small issue, then chances are their image was not very good to non-Christians to begin with. 

[Conan71]

I know your not and my question was serious. The premise of this thread, as I understand it, is that Christians might have an image problem after some voiced opposition to the name change.

My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites. When they vocalize their outrage to this hostility, though, it's the Christians' image that is of concern? In my experience, Christians are generally not selfish but rather very giving and charitable. I also believe they can be defensive. If their image has been hurt over this relatively small issue, then chances are their image was not very good to non-Christians to begin with. 

Well put.  I'm not sure either side got new recruits out of this dust up.

[Ed W]

My thought on the subject is that at least some Christians believe there is hostility towards their religion by the PC crowd or the elites.  

I forget where I came across this, but in the last couple of days, someone pointed out that Christianity survived the Roman Empire, so the whole 'Happy Holidays' dust up is relatively tame.

Religious convictions are highly personal.  They arouse intense emotions, no less so than when they're challenged.  So when someone approaches us to proselytize, we're naturally defensive.  Likewise, that intense emotional involvement makes it easy to mistake criticism or even factual reportage as attacks or hatred.  

I read a piece years ago that said there are three broad areas of human thought: religion, science, and art.  While we use a common language to describe all three, the thought processes that lie behind them are essentially beyond translation.  That's a huge divide.  But I'm thinking that the divide between religious beliefs is not any less.  So while a Christian may think the Iroquois giant turtle creation myth is so ludicrous as to be comical, the Iroquois may think the same about the Christian belief that God created the Earth in under a week.

[guido911]

I forget where I came across this, but in the last couple of days, someone pointed out that Christianity survived the Roman Empire, so the whole 'Happy Holidays' dust up is relatively tame.

Religious convictions are highly personal.  They arouse intense emotions, no less so than when they're challenged.  So when someone approaches us to proselytize, we're naturally defensive.  Likewise, that intense emotional involvement makes it easy to mistake criticism or even factual reportage as attacks or hatred.  

I read a piece years ago that said there are three broad areas of human thought: religion, science, and art.  While we use a common language to describe all three, the thought processes that lie behind them are essentially beyond translation.  That's a huge divide.  But I'm thinking that the divide between religious beliefs is not any less.  So while a Christian may think the Iroquois giant turtle creation myth is so ludicrous as to be comical, the Iroquois may think the same about the Christian belief that God created the Earth in under a week.

Can't argue with any of that. +1

[heironymouspasparagus]

Don't think this one thing really has much effect.  I will still go watch the parade if at all possible.  Have watched it intermittently since 1955 and just doesn't matter if they call it Christmas parade or not.  The name is irrelevant to my beliefs and won't hurt my observance of this holiday at all.  (Bonus that Inhofe will not be there!!)

The big thing that I see changing perception-wise is that there appears to be more open participation by non-Christians in holiday activities and a de-emphasis of government bias toward Christmas/Christians (except where it is strongly preserved in Union and Jenks school districts - see the football games?).

This seems to be seen as threatening.

There is plenty of room in this country for a wide variety of religions.  Just because someone is not Christian, doesn't mean they are trying to take your beliefs away from you!  That fear is becoming a large part of the perception of Christians, which is sad.

[sgrizzle]

I think this was just event number 272,364 where a group over-reacted to defend their values and hurt their image.

I'm a Christian and I would prefer the parade be called "Christmas." Unlike apparently 99% of the city, I noticed the name change in 2009.. when it happened. At the same time, it's not my parade or my City's parade. It is a parade put on by a group of volunteers who are working their butts off to try and put on the best parade they can. They have their decision making process and at no point does it, or should it say, "check with Grizzle." I am not going to beat my chest and demand every parade and festival operate they way I think it should. If public opinion ruled every event, then Mayfest would be in June and DFest would be a weekend of Top 40 artists no-one ever heard of before this year.

[custosnox]

I don't know about others, but I think part of what my problem with christianity is that I've lived my entire life having the religion pushed onto me and always in my face.  Might explain some of my animosity towards the religion as a whole.  But I do try to give things a fair shake despite this.