The role of the federal government in our lives

[Conan71]

I see many examples where government has solved a problem that private industry and personal responsibility did not.

My first example is the Tire Fund in the state of Oklahoma.

We now have to pay an extra $1 per tire (five dollars on a new car...includes the spare) that goes into a fund that guarantees proper recycling/disposal of old tires. Before the law was passed, there were large tire dumps all over the state breeding mosquitos and catching fire. There was also a pile behind many of our garages.

The fund got them cleaned up. It also paid for environmental groups like mine to do collections of tires. Now, these piles are virtually gone. New industries have popped up to reuse these tires and cement plants now have invested in equipment that allows them to be used as fuel.

The fund has done a great thing. Now people can make their lives safer by not storing tires.

Unfortunately, because the problem has been mostly solved, the fund has a cash balance. The legislature robs it for money to go into the general fund.

Whose fault is it that the fund gets raided? Is it the elected officials or the people who voted for them again and again after they raided it? Is it an unfair tax because rich people buy more new cars than poor people?

"give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Give a man a job and he can eat for an hour, usually between noon and one."

I think you will get universal agreement that the tire fund and what it accomplished is a great use of government.  It's when politicians and bureaucrats start trying to find jobs for their friends and supporters funded by such funds that it gets corrupted and becomes a part of government creep.

[Gaspar]

Somehow over the years, and I have mentioned this before, the liberal philosophy has changed.  It has become more of a progressive political philosophy than that of free thinkers.

I think the great disconnect is in the substitution of the words "society" and "government."
I also think this was a calculated progressive plan to expand political power, and incorporate and control the liberal masses.

Society is what is most necessary.  It's what all liberals should celebrate. It is not interchangeable with the term "government" unless of course you are a politician.  Politicians want voters to believe that they are serving "society," they are not.  They are serving government, hopefully as a representative of society.

I would challenge any liberal on this forum to substitute the word society for government in many of their posts and see how it affects their understanding.  

I anticipate the answer. . .

[guido911]

They are celebrated. Everyday, everywhere in our lives. Everybody looks up to the entreprenuer, the risk-taker, the successful. I guess I don't understand your point.

Are there exemplary, hard-working examples of not being celebrated?

Are you serious? Government rewards the risk takers and the successful by taxing the ever-living crap out of them. In all seriousness, had I known that all the years I spent in college/law school (and my wife even more than I) would result in me paying the astronomical federal income tax that I get hit with every year I would have chosen a different path.

[Townsend]

And T, RM is a big boy and can handle himself.

He'll go blind

[Gaspar]

Unfortunately, because the problem has been mostly solved, the fund has a cash balance. The legislature robs it for money to go into the general fund.

Whose fault is it that the fund gets raided? Is it the elected officials or the people who voted for them again and again after they raided it? Is it an unfair tax because rich people buy more new cars than poor people?

"give a man a fish and he can eat for a day. Give a man a job and he can eat for an hour, usually between noon and one."

They all start off well.  Pirates are always pirates.  Government plunders, especially itself.

[Teatownclown]

By "means testing", are you referring to rich people who pay tons of money into social security and when they retire they don't get their money back? And for purposes of this discussion, what exactly is "corporate welfare"?

Look. When there are 400 people whose total income equates to 150,000,000 others cumulatively then yes.
But mainly for medicare. I do not believe in class warfare so I would prefer to not drudge   into this discussion any further.

If you don't understand corporate welfare then over time I would be happy to illuminate you with examples.
You can check with the Chamber of Commerce for lots of examples. They are boss hawg enhancing these type
"incentives".

[Teatownclown]

Are you serious? Government rewards the risk takers and the successful by taxing the ever-living crap out of them. In all seriousness, had I known that all the years I spent in college/law school (and my wife even more than I) would result in me paying the astronomical federal income tax that I get hit with every year I would have chosen a different path.

Good to know you make good income but do you not believe in helping pay for security, education, and well being of your neighbors?

[Gaspar]

Good to know you make good income but do you not believe in helping pay for security, education, and well being of your neighbors?

So. . .From each according to his ability, to each according to his need?

[guido911]

Good to know you make good income but do you not believe in helping pay for security, education, and well being of your neighbors?

So government's job is to force the well off to be charitable? In any case, I really did not want to turn this into a tax policy debate. I'm kinda hacked off at myself for starting it.

[carltonplace]

Public wellfare is a role of government, is it redistribution of wealth? Sure, but it buys us all a certain guilt lite existance; our poverty is not as overt as it would be without these programs.

I've been to countries that have little or no public wellfare programs, child services programs, housing programs etcetera and these are not places that are nice to live in. The result of moving social services like these into the private sector is-commonplace begging and robbery.  Children beg and rob, and people who are contibuters in our society (like the blind or handicapped) stand (or sit) in traffic and beg.

That said, I agree that in the US we enable people to stay on the dole when we should be educating them and moving them from the system and into a contributing role.

[Gaspar]

That said, I agree that in the US we enable people to stay on the dole when we should be educating them and moving them from the system and into a contributing role.

That is because "the dole" is comfortable. 

I am amazed at how people and politicians get outraged when someone suggests that people on welfare be required to volunteer 15-20 hours a week in service to their fellow man. 

You can't buy votes when you force people to work for a living.  Oh! The humanity!

[tulsascoot]

That is because "the dole" is comfortable. 

I am amazed at how people and politicians get outraged when someone suggests that people on welfare be required to volunteer 15-20 hours a week in service to their fellow man. 

You can't buy votes when you force people to work for a living.  Oh! The humanity!

I don't think too many would say it is comfortable. I know some single moms who would not be able to keep their kids fed with healthy meals without the assistance they get from SNAP. They would love to work more, but struggle with keeping kids fed, dressed and in school, and keeping a work schedule that allows for raising a family. Sometimes that results in part time work, barely covering bills. While they may take more than they contribute to the tax base, are these examples the lazy welfare recipients you speak of? I think they are like a vast majority of benefit recipients. The lazy teet sucking welfare recipient is likely a small percentage of those who need help.

Furthermore, if you are concerned with someone grazing for handouts from the government, look no further than defense contractors. The military spends astronomical amounts of tax dollars on things we simply do not need.

Also, the subsidies for farmers which are taken advantage of by big corporate farms who make a healthy profit and don't need it.

So, who is worse here? Where do your tax dollars benefit us most?

[nathanm]

I don't think too many would say it is comfortable.

I think this illustrates the mentality quite well:

A CEO, a Tea Party activist and a Union employee are sitting at a table. A plate of a dozen cookies sits in the middle of the table. The CEO takes 11 of the cookies, turns to the tea partier and says, 'Watch out for that union guy. He wants a piece of your cookie."

(not my joke)

[Gaspar]

I don't think too many would say it is comfortable. I know some single moms who would not be able to keep their kids fed with healthy meals without the assistance they get from SNAP. They would love to work more, but struggle with keeping kids fed, dressed and in school, and keeping a work schedule that allows for raising a family. Sometimes that results in part time work, barely covering bills. While they may take more than they contribute to the tax base, are these examples the lazy welfare recipients you speak of? I think they are like a vast majority of benefit recipients. The lazy teet sucking welfare recipient is likely a small percentage of those who need help.

Furthermore, if you are concerned with someone grazing for handouts from the government, look no further than defense contractors. The military spends astronomical amounts of tax dollars on things we simply do not need.

Also, the subsidies for farmers which are taken advantage of by big corporate farms who make a healthy profit and don't need it.

So, who is worse here? Where do your tax dollars benefit us most?

Good ideas, lets reduce spending on unnecessary defense contracts, and lets END farm subsidies.  I'm liking the way you think.

I don't think all welfare recipients are lazy, I just think there should be some return attached to the program. It's a hand up rather than a hand out.

[nathanm]

I don't think all welfare recipients are lazy, I just think there should be some return attached to the program. It's a hand up rather than a hand out.

As in a profit margin?