Frack Off

[Gaspar]

Wow, you've made it to the 70s! Maybe in another couple of years you'll join us in the 21st century!

Edited to add: Rather than solely snarking, I guess I should complete the thought: The earthquakes that injection wells cause are unrelated to the deeper earthquakes generated by long term geologic processes. Injection wells simply aren't deep enough to matter. An interesting possibility converse to your supposition is that small quakes in the upper part of the crust might trigger larger quakes along deep faults.

There was actually a bunch of research on this in Colorado in the 70s after there was a cluster of small earthquakes there.

Actually I expected your snark.  The way it was explained to me is that massive quakes have a magnification effect.  They start deep and as the waves travel to the surface they release kinetic energy stored in multiple layers as they pass.  A massive quake may start with a relatively small amount of energy at it's epicenter but release much more in a wide funnel shape as it travels to and along the surface.  This may also trigger several aftershocks that can be as powerful as the original shift.

[HazMatCFO]

Fracking is the next left wing environmental cause du jour as the global warming hysteria cools off.

[Gaspar]

Fracking is the next left wing environmental cause du jour as the global warming hysteria cools off.

I said it several times. . .when the Global Warming hobgoblin cooled off (no pun), a new god would arise for the left.

Part of their fabric is to manufacture new evils, so that they might extoll their own false piety. It's simply another form of arrogance.

For liberalism to survive they must keep the populous alarmed so that liberals can offer progressive solutions.  To do this all of the hobgoblins must be attributable to the actions of man. The problem comes when they have to back away from fantastic and expensive solutions because they learn that either the problem never really existed, or the prevention is beyond their power. 

[Conan71]

Impressive statistics, but no scientific link as of yet.  However, the media will have this spun into fact within the next six months with some horrible conclusions like the new WTC or Empire State Building buckling and being toppled over in 50 years as a result of fracking . 

I do find it highly plausible that smaller magnitude quakes could be the result of fracking since fracking does involve fracturing substrate rock.  There's also not near enough evidence gathered thus far to show potential harm from smaller quakes, nor do we know much about seismic cycles at this point in history to be able to have a full grasp of what all this means.

But another expert was not convinced of a link to oil and gas operations.

Austin Holland, the Oklahoma state seismologist, said the new work presents an "interesting hypothesis" but that the increase in earthquake rates could simply be the result of natural processes.

Holland said clusters of quakes can occur naturally, and that scientists do not yet fully understand the natural cycles of seismic activity in the central United States. Comprehensive earthquake records for the region go back only a few decades, he said, while natural cycles stretch for tens of thousands of years. So too little is known to rule out natural processes for causing the increase, he said.

http://www.theintelligencer.net/page/content.detail/id/568353/Federal-Study-Ties-Fracking-to-Earthquakes.html?nav=515

Interesting op-ed in the Oklahoman this morning

http://newsok.com/jumping-to-fracking-quake-conclusions-certainly-a-bad-idea/article/3665213

It's interesting what you can do with some editorial license.  This goes from "almost certainly man-made" to "there's a link!"  Yet you read further and find the researchers really don't know why oil and gas activity might cause an increase in earthquakes.

Washington, D.C. – A U.S. Geological Survey research team has linked oil and natural gas drilling operations to a series of recent earthquakes from Alabama to the Northern Rockies.

According to the study led by USGS geophysicist William Ellsworth, the spike in earthquakes since 2001 near oil and gas extraction operations is "almost certainly man-made." The research team cites underground injection of drilling wastewater as a possible cause.

...The USGS authors said they do not know why oil and gas activity might cause an increase in earthquakes but a possible explanation is the increase in the number of wells drilled over the past decade and the increase in fluid used in the hydraulic fracturing of each well. The combination of factors is likely creating far larger amounts of wastewater that companies often inject into underground disposal wells. Scientists have linked these disposal wells to earthquakes since as early as the 1960s. The injections can induce seismicity by changing pressure and adding lubrication along faults.

http://www.ewg.org/analysis/usgs-recent-earthquakes-almost-certainly-manmade

[heironymouspasparagus]

This is another one of those topics (like global warming) where we don't have enough historical data to get to a valid conclusion.  We have only been able to monitor seismic activity realistically since about 1780 - and accurately and widespread enough to be of real value, for less than 100 years.  That just ain't enough data points.

There is some strong "coincidence" related to the recent (last 5 years or so) earthquake activity at about 3 miles depth to the increased drilling/fracking activity at about 3 miles depth, but I cannot imagine any real scientist/engineer making an absolute statement based on so little time/data.  Seems logical, though - at least until some other evidence comes to light - which means we ought to be studying it very closely.  Not the we can or will do much about it if found to be a cause/effect relationship....



My theory is - think of the earth as big 'balloon'.  When you poke a very tiny hole in the balloon, air starts to come out, causing the balloon to shrink/wrinkle.  So, after a while, after we have taken all the oil/gas out, the earth will shrink and wrinkle even more, leaving us at a diameter of about 4 thousand miles - or about half what it is today.  So as we contract, the flat places on earth will all rise up to be mountains, and the oceans will then cover all the land except for maybe the Himalayas.  Better get a boat!   (Kidding, in case no one could hear the inflection in my voice...)

[nathanm]

As I mentioned earlier, we've actually got experience dating back to the 50s with increased seismicity in the vicinity of injection wells. I don't recall any of those older events causing any sort of damage, however, so it may be going too far to link magnitude 4-5 earthquakes with them.

[patric]

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/411275/march-28-2012/mark-ruffalo

[dbacks fan]

So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

[Hoss]

So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

Kinda in the same way Ted Nugent is an expert on American political policy?

[heironymouspasparagus]

I have personal access to my own private Nuclear Health Physicist, so had this person bring the measurement tools to a family members home in Broken Arrow.  Alpha and Beta detector was normal levels.  When the gamma detector was being prepped, the talk was about the normal background levels and how that is what should be expected - around 4 or 5.  (I think it was micro-Roetgens....)

As soon as the detector was turned on, the response was, "Oh....that's high....well, it's still ok, nothing to worry about...".   So, of course, I won't worry....
It was 12 - 14 micro.  Probably not a problem. 

I think it was caused by the wells drilled on the property in the '40s and 50s...broke the ground loose and released the radiation buried there, waiting to come out and play.  No earthquakes yet, but still waiting.  Oh, wait - yes we did have an earthquake, but it was near Prague - twice.  Just got to feel it here in Tulsa...

[heironymouspasparagus]

So, Mark Ruffalo is an expert on geology, petrochemical exploration, chemistry, and petrochemical production, and he is also an expert on the enviroment, and the fact that most peoples homes are ticking time bombs waiting to explode because everybody's house is getting water contaminated with fracking chemicals and natural gas. Is he an expert on light pollution as well? I guess he must have an education in electrical engineering, architecture, planning and design, code enforcement, structural engineering, the effects of man made lighting on the enviroment, both human and ecological, HVAC, wind turbine, hydroelectric, and waterway development. Is he educated in water treatment facilities, sewage treatment, reclaimed water, solid waste, trash and recyclables as well?

The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....pretty much any person with a brain would realize that if a river - made of water - catches fire, there is likely to be a problem as the underlying root cause.

Also don't have to be an expert to understand that Germany, that Mecca of tanning excellence, has been able to achieve close to 30% of it's energy from solar.  Actually, the number as of last year was a little less, if memory serves, but they are VERY aggressively pursuing that level.  And wind.


But it would be a shame to bring reality into any discussion that might possibly take a penny out of the pockets of big oil...

[Hoss]

The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....pretty much any person with a brain would realize that if a river - made of water - catches fire, there is likely to be a problem as the underlying root cause.

Also don't have to be an expert to understand that Germany, that Mecca of tanning excellence, has been able to achieve close to 30% of it's energy from solar.  Actually, the number as of last year was a little less, if memory serves, but they are VERY aggressively pursuing that level.  And wind.


But it would be a shame to bring reality into any discussion that might possibly take a penny out of the pockets of big oil...

This guy may not have been an expert, but he sure enlightened himself along the way of making this movie.  I found it pretty informational as it relates to the practice:

Gasland (maybe a movie made about a poster on this forum?...j/k)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1558250/

[Conan71]

The really good thing about it is that you don't have to be an expert on any of those things to read about them from people who ARE experts and realize there are issues....

The problem is when people who have a public platform to speak and are not experts (Algore *cough*) seize on the parts of a report or paper which most enraptures them and only follow that thread- essentially speaking for the experts even though they have no real scientific knowledge to start with.  Or they simply add hyperbole and bastardize it into a cause which will define them and reward them with either power, recognition, or money.

It's just like the old rumor line exercise.  Start a story at one end of the room, pass it through 20 people and see how much it morphed to  being nowhere close to the original message or at odds with the original message.

[DolfanBob]

That movie was just on one of the pay movie channels and I actually caught that. He does discover some very nasty situations happening in rural America with the drilling going on.
The couple that had lived on their land for generations I think it was in Wyoming. And the gas fumes that now surround the home and affect the cattle was terrible. The giant pool of sludge were they pump the flowback water is just a big pond of contaminated liquid.
I have heard of people being able to light the water coming out of their faucet, but the man in this movie almost catches himself on fire with the big ball of flame coming out of his.
I realize we have to have these resources but at what cost to the publics health and benefit.

[heironymouspasparagus]

Contaminated wells go back a long time.  I had an uncle who lived on a farm in Ft. Scott KS (1955 to about 1975), where there was a couple of gas wells back about 3/8 mile from the road - back side of 160 acres.  The water well near the front of the property had methane coming out of it.  There was a water valve at the well house and light the water on fire from gas coming out.  The solution was to pump water into a pond that he made, aerate to get rid of the methane, then run the pond water from that pond into the sand filter and then to house.

Methane is straightforward to deal with and not a cause for alarm, unless you have it at the kitchen faucet and it gets lit up....